tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post116542849851513352..comments2024-03-15T23:25:52.517-07:00Comments on the joy of sox: 2007 Lineupallanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165689324930150472006-12-09T10:35:00.000-08:002006-12-09T10:35:00.000-08:00Having lived in Yankee-land for the entire span of...<I>Having lived in Yankee-land for the entire span of Bernie's career, I've seen him loved in general.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I lived there for Bernie's whole career minus the final year. Not only that - assuming you went to the Stadium when the Sox were in town but not otherwise - I went to many more games than you. Bernie-bashing was a frequent pastime in the stands. <BR/><BR/>I'd often see little kids and women wearing a Bernie shirt. The bashing generally came from big groups of guys. Bernie was considered not "man enough".<BR/><BR/><I>Still, at a very basic level, I am right: If you play left field by sleeping in the grass and swinging the bat with your eyes closed, your stats will be worse than if you tried just the slightest bit. How far that can be taken, who knows.</I><BR/><BR/>About as far as Little League. Because if you do those things, you aren't playing the game, and you couldn't make it to high school sports, never mind professional sports on any level.<BR/><BR/>By re-making this point, you're actually making mine for me. I think fans' judgments of players' relative efforts - which can only be based on an external <I>show</I> of effort, since we are not in their heads - is a hangover from the days when our coaches and teachers gave us points for effort, and told us, if you work at it, you'll show improvement. <BR/><BR/>I don't think it applies in the majors, because I think everyone must be working hard, must be competitive and must want to win, or they won't survive.<BR/><BR/>I agree re players' memories. Always to be taken with several grains of salt. However, my point about what Joe Torre said - and the point he was making - are valid and not dependent on the exact numbers quoted. <BR/><BR/>The point is that when a player does not succeed, it doesn't mean he's not trying - and players who do well are not necessarily trying harder. That's just a fallacy.<BR/><BR/><I>Torre hit .363 in 1971 (won the MVP), then hit .289 in 1972.</I><BR/><BR/>Those are the years he's referring to, and the numbers are pretty close to what I said. It's very possible I got the quote wrong, rather than he misquoted his numbers.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165633872493922482006-12-08T19:11:00.000-08:002006-12-08T19:11:00.000-08:00Torre hit .363 in 1971 (won the MVP), then hit .28...Torre hit .363 in 1971 (won the MVP), then hit .289 in 1972.<BR/><BR/>This reminds me of a great Bill James article that <A HREF="http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2004/04/two-thousand-years-of-willie-mays.html" REL="nofollow">I blogged about in April 2004</A>: "2,000 Years of Willie Mays".<BR/><BR/>James found that Joe DiMaggio could hit .338-38-150 one season and then .264-18-79 the next through nothing more than bad luck.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165627380358091372006-12-08T17:23:00.000-08:002006-12-08T17:23:00.000-08:00This whole thing about yankee fans hating Bernie i...This whole thing about yankee fans hating Bernie is new to me......I see quite a few yankee fans everyday...And I think they all respect him quite a bit.....9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165625447406580672006-12-08T16:50:00.000-08:002006-12-08T16:50:00.000-08:00"(Looking in Baseball-Reference.com, I can't find ..."(Looking in Baseball-Reference.com, I can't find the .260 year, but the point is made all the same.)"<BR/><BR/>Proves my theory: whenever any baseball player tells a story that involves numbers, those number are totally wrong. Goes along with what you were saying about what's in people's memories.<BR/><BR/>Having lived in Yankee-land for the entire span of Bernie's career, I've seen him loved in general. Big seller, player T-shirt-wise, and they're even on a first name basis with him. Let's just say the fans that do like him, love him, and the fans that don't, hate him. Something like that.<BR/><BR/>Apology accepted on the other thing. Still, at a very basic level, I am right: If you play left field by sleeping in the grass and swinging the bat with your eyes closed, your stats will be worse than if you tried just the slightest bit. How far that can be taken, who knows. You could be right about it, that at the major league level, nobody can really improve by saying, "I'm gonna try harder this year." Then again, look at contract years...Jerehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13448619048422750447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165611740694578692006-12-08T13:02:00.000-08:002006-12-08T13:02:00.000-08:00Re Bernie, I definitely think more Yankees fans di...Re Bernie, I definitely think more Yankees fans disliked him than liked him, and considering what a good player he was in his prime, that really says something. A lot of it was down to Michael Kay, the rest down to Bernie's lack of perceived passion.<BR/><BR/>Re trying hard, sorry to quote my old friend Joe Torre here, but he's often quoted as saying, One year I hit 360, one year I hit 260, and I tried just as hard both years. <BR/><BR/>(Looking in Baseball-Reference.com, I can't find the .260 year, but the point is made all the same.)laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165611480810382082006-12-08T12:58:00.000-08:002006-12-08T12:58:00.000-08:00So, unless you were doing that on purpose to prove...<I>So, unless you were doing that on purpose to prove your point, then: I mentioned that a lot of Yankee fans DO like Bernie. </I><BR/><BR/>Ah no, not to prove a point, just to say what I meant. Bernie has his following, sure, but don't confuse the love that was shown to him last season with that following. The following was never that big. Certainly never big enough to reflect his worth, IMO. <BR/><BR/><I>Trying hard shows. The harder you try, the better stats you end up with. </I><BR/><BR/>I don't believe that for one second.<BR/><BR/>So last year Keith Foulke didn't try hard enough? Crisp didn't try hard enough? And Ortiz, he tries the hardest? No, not necessarily.<BR/><BR/>Trying hard does not show. It may not show in facial expressions (although it may) and it may not show in stats. There are too many variables outside a player's control.<BR/><BR/><I>This is also a reponse to your dirty hat sarcasm response to me in the more current post's comments.</I><BR/><BR/>Jere, that wasn't sarcasm. I meant it only as a light joke, no offense meant whatsoever. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was getting on you. I was definitely not. I thought it would make you laugh. Sorry if I miscalculated.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165611131435146652006-12-08T12:52:00.000-08:002006-12-08T12:52:00.000-08:00L-girl, you should have an email from 'Jim' in WMT...L-girl, you should have an email from 'Jim' in WMTC.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10275164807141705059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165611062652431522006-12-08T12:51:00.000-08:002006-12-08T12:51:00.000-08:00Laura, I think your response to me was colored/col...Laura, I think your response to me was colored/coloured by the way you perceive me to react to things. So, unless you were doing that on purpose to prove your point, then: I mentioned that a lot of Yankee fans DO like Bernie. And you took that as me somehow making fun of Yankee fans or I don't even know what. But if anything I was defending the Yankee fans who DO appreciate Bernie. <BR/><BR/>Okay, re-reading evething, I guess the confusion might be from redsock talkg about you talking about Michael talking about Yankee fans who hate Bernie. That's what I was referring to.<BR/><BR/>"You're saying that external demonstrativeness - a quirk of personality - is a part of how you judge a player and should be a part of how a team is made up."<BR/><BR/>Trying hard shows. The harder you try, the better stats you end up with. This is also a reponse to your dirty hat sarcasm response to me in the more current post's comments. Here I go with Little League again: In All-Stars, circa 1986, this coach told me that in life, as well as baseball, I need to come out of my shell. I thought, F you, dude, I like my shell. But I wasn't accused of not hustling or trying on the field, becuase I always did, despite not being a loudmouth helmet-thrower type.Jerehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13448619048422750447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165610033332270292006-12-08T12:33:00.000-08:002006-12-08T12:33:00.000-08:00Just one rule: NO FREAKING CHATTER ABOUT HOW THE F...<I>Just one rule: NO FREAKING CHATTER ABOUT HOW THE FREAKING LEAFS ARE DOING!!</I><BR/><BR/>Deal.<BR/><BR/>Glad you're in. Only one thing missing on my end and that's your email address. Email me or Allan so we have it, ok?laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165607509458726792006-12-08T11:51:00.000-08:002006-12-08T11:51:00.000-08:00L-girl, yeah, meeting at the Dome for a 'blind' ou...L-girl, yeah, meeting at the Dome for a 'blind' outing sounds excellent. I don't mind mid-week at all. Just post your thinking etc. as to the when. Just one rule: NO FREAKING CHATTER ABOUT HOW THE FREAKING LEAFS ARE DOING!! There'll be enough of that at the Dome anyway.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10275164807141705059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165600885874934252006-12-08T10:01:00.000-08:002006-12-08T10:01:00.000-08:00Woti man, no one steals your thunder, that's a gre...Woti man, no one steals your thunder, that's a great post. <BR/><BR/>Get ready for our wmtc outing at Skydome (Skydome, damnit!) in early spring. The Sox are in town on all weekdays, which the Jays hate, but Allan & Laura - working weekends - love! <BR/><BR/>I'm going to organize at least one big wmtc night, but we'll be going to lots of games, if you want to come in, that would be cool.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165600337476628592006-12-08T09:52:00.000-08:002006-12-08T09:52:00.000-08:00I said it like 45 posts ago .....but the perfect e...I said it like 45 posts ago .....but the perfect example is<BR/><BR/>A-Rod...we all wanted him in 2004 but after we saw him play 26 times that year most people said he was a pretty boy stat machine, yankee fans mostly, Red Sox like Trot and Schill also called him out and his own team doesn't respect him very much, but every year he hits around 300 40 hr s and 100 rbi's and i belive he also had the most game winning rbi's last year....<BR/><BR/>When the comment sheet goes to 70 plus we should forward it to the FO....<BR/>Just for fun the 8 play off teams ranks in obp last year<BR/><BR/>NyY......1<BR/>Nym.........18<BR/>Tigers.....24<BR/>As....10<BR/>twins....6<BR/>card....14<BR/>dodgers...4<BR/>padres....21<BR/><BR/>ops<BR/>NyY......1<BR/>Nym.........18<BR/>Tigers.....24<BR/>As....21<BR/>twins....13<BR/>card....14<BR/>dodgers...4<BR/>padres....22<BR/><BR/>era<BR/>NyY......12<BR/>Nym.........6<BR/>Tigers.....1<BR/>As....7<BR/>twins....3<BR/>card....16<BR/>dodgers...8<BR/>padres....2<BR/><BR/>postion players might be overated..<BR/>Like we all didn't know it was all about pitching.....<BR/><BR/>The Dice man cometh?9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165600221518323982006-12-08T09:50:00.000-08:002006-12-08T09:50:00.000-08:00Jeez, is this thread still going? Every time I go ...Jeez, is this thread still going? Every time I go away to gather my thoughts, I come back to find that someone has "stolen my thunder" (to quote countless 'EEI callers).<BR/><BR/> Anyway, my random 2 cents:<BR/><BR/> Surely a 'productive out' is after-the-fact serendipity. You don't want a guy going to the plate thinking "I'm going to make an out here, but it's going to be productive." Unless he's an NL pitcher or obviously going up to sacrifice. I, too, cringe when I hear the term. But after the Sox squander a lead-off double, or come up with zilch after loading the bases with no outs ...<BR/> Stats usually remind me of how selective my memory can be. I love the situational ones--RISP, 2-out RBI's, close and late, Inherited runners stranded etc., even knowing full well that they don't mean a damn thing for the specific at-bat I'm watching in real time.<BR/> By and large, I don't like the over-emotional display in baseball. It's ok for hockey or football when they can knock the crap out of somebody and give their mates a lift, but stomping around the mound or helmet-throwing is simply bush. As Jere infers, you tell Little-Leaguers to grow up when they act like that. If you had a team full of Bernie Williams, or one full of Eric Byrneses, you'd have the MLB drug chasers camped in both clubhouses. Balance and moderation, and we really can do without the Eric Byrneses.<BR/> Which brings us to the latter's performance on FOX last post-season and what the world of TV baseball commentary has become. Enough said. I cannot thank enough for whoever is responsible for MLB-Extra Innings and allowing me to watch and judge for myself. And the internet for allowing me to 'talk' with you guys who watched the same thing and drew different conclusions. Play Ball!!Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10275164807141705059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165595381360667462006-12-08T08:29:00.000-08:002006-12-08T08:29:00.000-08:00Knowing that a player is smart as hell and plays l...<I>Knowing that a player is smart as hell and plays like it isn't valuable in constructing a team?<BR/><BR/>It helps, but if he hits .220 despite belonging to Mensa, well, maybe a GM should look elsewhere.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess is this more to the point. If a player's value can't be shown in numbers <I>at all</I> but everyone thinks he's such a gamer (Doug Mirabelli, anyone?), I'd be highly skeptical of the observers and would tend to think they're in love with a dirty cap.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165595226332494352006-12-08T08:27:00.000-08:002006-12-08T08:27:00.000-08:00Knowing that a player is smart as hell and plays l...<I>Knowing that a player is smart as hell and plays like it isn't valuable in constructing a team?</I><BR/><BR/>It helps, but if he hits .220 despite belonging to Mensa, well, maybe a GM should look elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>And if you have Cora-level talent, you <I>better</I> have on-field smarts.<BR/><BR/>I'd take Dewey, too. He was quite underrated (for a start, people didn't understand about walks back in the old days).allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165595088062058932006-12-08T08:24:00.000-08:002006-12-08T08:24:00.000-08:00Informed opinions are based on fact, but facts don...<I>Informed opinions are based on fact, but facts don't interpret themselves except on a very basic level. Analyzing facts requires weighing them, comparing them, extrapolating them, and coming to rational conclusions. Everyone's opinions are absolutely NOT of equal value.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely. I agree with you 100%.<BR/><BR/>Except that most of what I hear on TV comes down to dirty caps.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying Jerry Remy never gives smart analysis. That would be going too far. Of course he occasionally imparts some insight that is useful. But despite his lifetime of experience in the game, Remy seems much more interested in promoting himself and selling his products than in analysis. <BR/><BR/>Most TV announcers are very lazy, and don't do a lot of analysis. That's just my opinion. Maybe while they're being intelligent and analytical, I'm busy tuning them out because of all the other stupid stuff they say. But I just don't see it.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165593428405881052006-12-08T07:57:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:57:00.000-08:00(Hi, Buster!) : I'm convinced that the rise in med...<I> (Hi, Buster!) </I><BR/><BR/>:<( <BR/><BR/><I> I'm convinced that the rise in media praising "productive outs" (Hi, Buster!) is a specific backlash against Moneyball and the more progressive ideas of the last few years. </I><BR/><BR/>It absolutely is! (IMO)<BR/><BR/>Just like how many times last season I heard "analysts" say, That was before everyone talked about on-base percentage and all that new stuff. (To paraphrase roughly.)laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165593302925824412006-12-08T07:55:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:55:00.000-08:00My hero, Bill James, tends to denigrate the player...<I>My hero, Bill James, tends to denigrate the players who are praised for making "productive outs," but moving runners along is a skill, and sometimes a game is won by it.</I><BR/><BR/>Does he? I'd say he either denigrates people who love "productive outs" or he feels players should not be praised for that "skill".<BR/><BR/>Outs are bad. Always. A team gets only 27 every game and they better avoid making them at all costs.<BR/><BR/>I really hate the term "productive out", though I understand what it means. If you are going to make an out, it's good to also move a runner with it, but why think about an out?<BR/><BR/>Also, I'm convinced that the rise in media praising "productive outs" (Hi, Buster!) is a specific backlash against Moneyball and the more progressive ideas of the last few years.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165593004570678122006-12-08T07:50:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:50:00.000-08:00Bias is an impediment to be acknowledged and dealt...<I>Bias is an impediment to be acknowledged and dealt with; it isn't a disqualifier. If it were, no analysts of ANYTHING would have any value. </I><BR/><BR/>Analysts who use facts would still have value. People who analyze solely by observation are not analysts, no matter what their job description says. They are observers.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165592918079465842006-12-08T07:48:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:48:00.000-08:00I WOULDN'T take an entire team of Bernie WilliamsB...<I>I WOULDN'T take an entire team of Bernie Williams</I><BR/><BR/>Because who would pitch?allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165592594467696222006-12-08T07:43:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:43:00.000-08:00Agreed, Laura...but the "grain of salt" is simply ...<I>Agreed, Laura...but the "grain of salt" is simply to recognize that complete objectivity is impossible, not to ignore all informed opinions and observations, right?</I><BR/><BR/>Mmmrrrhmmm... I can only partially agree. Informed opinions are based on fact. That's the "informed" part of the opinion. Those are to be listened to. <BR/><BR/>Observations...? Those are not to be taken any more or less seriously than the observations of anyone who reads this blog, posts on SOSH, etc. - meaning, anyone who watches the team every day or almost every day. Those observations are valid, but extremely limited and subject to bias.<BR/><BR/>In my experience, most people do not correct for their own biases. A few do, but most do not, and I've never heard or seen an announcer or TV analyst who does.<BR/><BR/>Your note about Remy and Cora, that kind of thing is great when you're watching the game, it has value in that it increases your enjoyment of the game. However, I don't think it has much value when constructing a team.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165592260118981432006-12-08T07:37:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:37:00.000-08:00I WOULDN'T take an entire team of Bernie Williams'...<I>I WOULDN'T take an entire team of Bernie Williams'. I'd take A Bernie, not all of them.</I><BR/><BR/>This also points out what I was saying. You're basing this on personality. Unless you're saying you think Bernie didn't try hard? Which would be silly. You're saying you wouldn't want a team full of laid-back guys who don't <I>appear</I> to be trying hard.<BR/><BR/>You're saying that external demonstrativeness - a quirk of personality - is a part of how you judge a player and should be a part of how a team is made up.<BR/><BR/>That seems very silly and childish to me.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165590708276060092006-12-08T07:11:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:11:00.000-08:00I DO like when players go diving around (when it's...<I>I DO like when players go diving around (when it's NEC-essary, Derek) and aren't afraid to break that cigar in their back pocket and show that they're giving their all on the field. <BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>Talk about prejudices colouring everything one sees. </I><BR/><BR/>My case in point. Most people (Red Sox fans included, at least as indicated on the SOSH game thread that night) saw this famous incident one way. Jere and supposedly other people he knows saw something very different.<BR/><BR/>Was Jeter the ultimate gamer that day? Or was he showboating? That depends on who you ask, and their answer may depend on what they already believed.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165590460750689052006-12-08T07:07:00.000-08:002006-12-08T07:07:00.000-08:00It just seems like when y'all are talking about pe...<I>It just seems like when y'all are talking about people who like "gamers," you're implying we like guys that get really mad</I><BR/><BR/>Nope. I wasn't implying that. You cleared that up the first time you said this.<BR/><BR/><I>And I do think it has meaning. I would totally take a player whose stats are juuuust slightly below another player's, if the first player clearly goes out of his/her way or does extra stuff to try to win and the second player is indifferent.</I><BR/><BR/>My point is that your judgements of who "goes out of his way" and who is "indifferent" is a judgment of how demonstrative each player is. That is <I>not</I> an effective means of measuring how hard someone is trying or how much they care. <BR/><BR/>Some people cry very easily. Some rarely cry at all. Yet they all feel sadness. Some people show anger easily... My point is not that you should or shouldn't like one player over another. My point is that you are making a judgment about what's inside a player based on some superficial, external factor, a part of the player's personality. And that, in my opinion, is bullshit, when it comes to evaluating a player's worth. <BR/><BR/>Fun, enjoyable, part of your experience as a fan - yes. A factor in making up a team - god, no. Save me from the GM who makes trades based on what a gamer a guy is.<BR/><BR/><I>I WOULDN'T take an entire team of Bernie Williams'. I'd take A Bernie, not all of them.</I><BR/><BR/>But in professinal sports, you're never going to get a team of Bernie Williamses - he's a bit of an oddball, personality wise.<BR/><BR/><I>Also, I know what you're saying about him and Yankee fans, but I would like to point out that he's definitely beloved among a huge faction of Yankee fans. I mean, they're definitely showing their appreciation currently, in his faux-retirement period here. </I><BR/><BR/>Jere, I wasn't saying anything about Yankee fans. That is your reading only. I think Red Sox fans are 100% as guilty of this as Yankee fans ever are. <BR/><BR/>I'm not surprised you brought up the recent appreciation of Bernie in his waning years. I mentioned that in my discussion w/ Allan, too. It was new, it was specifically directed at him because he was leaving, and if he played every day and stank, they wouldn't have cared, they would have boo'd him despite impending retirement. As would Red Sox fans.<BR/><BR/>Please, I implore you, let's not go there. Talk about prejudices colouring everything one sees.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1165589950400524812006-12-08T06:59:00.000-08:002006-12-08T06:59:00.000-08:00There is not one "solid analyst" whose observation...There is not one "solid analyst" whose observations about players can be trusted without a very large grain of salt. <BR/><BR/>Their memories are as fallible as anyone else's, they are subject to the same prejudices (conscious and non-conscious) as everyone else, they are as effected by media labeling as much as anyone else. Jerry Remy's opinions are the opinions of one man who watches every game. So are Jack Marshall's opinions, so are Allan's opinions (and hey, so are mine). All season long, we'll watch the same games, and yet we'll all have different opinions. <BR/><BR/>Obviously, that's why we need the numbers.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.com