tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post5225686672167247588..comments2024-03-15T23:25:52.517-07:00Comments on the joy of sox: G26: Rays 2, Red Sox 1allanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comBlogger500125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-21751324777925353192008-04-27T10:19:00.000-07:002008-04-27T10:19:00.000-07:00Talk about bad analogies---the whole point of prot...<I>Talk about bad analogies---the whole point of protecting CB during the no-hitter was that it was at the END of the season, and he had thrown a lot of pitches, more than he ever had before. That's completely different from NOW, early in the year.</I><BR/><BR/>I can speak only for myself, but I want Buchholz pitching in October -- at the END of this season.<BR/><BR/>"But he was pitching good!"<BR/><BR/>Yes! He was! He's a good pitcher! So?<BR/><BR/>He has a innings limit this season. We all know that. Why run it up any more than you have to -- especially when your two best bullpen arm need work to stay fresh?allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-90766848566358382222008-04-27T10:11:00.000-07:002008-04-27T10:11:00.000-07:00and apologize for thinking otherwiseYou know there...<I>and apologize for thinking otherwise</I><BR/><BR/>You <I>know</I> there have been plenty of times when Francona has done something I think is a mistake and it has worked out good for the Sox -- and I still think it's dumb.<BR/><BR/>LIKE FRIDAY'S GAME!!<BR/><BR/>TWO DAYS AGO!!!!!<BR/><BR/>I mean ... Fuckin' A?!?<BR/><BR/>(It worked out good for a few innings anyway. Still dumb. I figured Tito would see he dodged a big bullet and go to a better pitcher.)<BR/><BR/>And it works the other way. A good decision that backfires is still a good decision. That's been my (consistent and clear, I thought) POV for 5 years on this blog.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-18046634880036620092008-04-27T10:03:00.000-07:002008-04-27T10:03:00.000-07:00If you really believe that you would ...All ya got...<I> If you really believe that you would ...</I><BR/><BR/>All ya gotta do is read what I wrote during that part of the game.<BR/><BR/>(And everything since then.)allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-47511397760399181422008-04-27T10:00:00.000-07:002008-04-27T10:00:00.000-07:00And finally---I'm sorry the reference to "Hindsigh...And finally---I'm sorry the reference to "Hindsight bias" annoys you, Allan...it s pretty universal phenomenon that we all are subject to. If you really believe that you would be as vociferous about the wrongness of Tito's decision to leave in Buchholtz to pitch the 8th had he breezed through it and the Sox had picked up a 1-0 win, then I humbly pronounce you immune, and apologize for thinking otherwise.Jack Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12129607755816264057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-77806707436413440192008-04-27T09:50:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:50:00.000-07:00No, I'm not aware of that, and I'd love a clarific...No, I'm not aware of that, and I'd love a clarification. I agree that 7 innings is the benchmark of a fully effective starting pitching performance. Given that, I don't understand how 8 innings becomes risky or excessive when a pitcher is going well.<BR/><BR/>Talk about bad analogies---the whole point of protecting CB during the no-hitter was that it was at the END of the season, and he had thrown a lot of pitches, more than he ever had before. That's completely different from NOW, early in the year. Kerry Wood, Saberhagen, Gooden, Valenzuala, all the young pitchers blown out by high pitch counts, were throwing 130-140 pitches start after start One 113 pitch outing early in the season isn't going to hurt any young pitcher unless he's already hurt. Look at Clemens' early games.Jack Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12129607755816264057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-19984346261708864592008-04-27T09:40:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:40:00.000-07:00L-girl said... 9Casey, sorry, I misread you! Thank...L-girl said... <BR/>9Casey, sorry, I misread you! Thanks, Allan.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Sometime that happens with me......No problem...<BR/><BR/>When I asked the question in the 7th I specifcally wanted Redsock's answer.....I thought no way Tito was going to the same on two different nights......He(redsock) was cosistent with his strategy 2 nights in a row , sad part, so was Tito...9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-28065653081725641022008-04-27T09:32:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:32:00.000-07:00Last thing.Jack wrote: Wow---pretty narrow range t...Last thing.<BR/><BR/>Jack wrote:<BR/><I> Wow---pretty narrow range there: you stink if you don't go more than six, but the manager is an idiot if you go more than 7.</I><BR/><BR/>Disagree with me all you want. That's cool. <BR/><BR/>But <B>do not</B> act like I'm saying shit I'm not saying. <BR/><BR/>I never said anything like this -- and it is <B>not</B> a logical extension of what I did say. <BR/><BR/>I will not presume to know if you are truly aware of that.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-13014928541100643802008-04-27T09:24:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:24:00.000-07:00Wanna know what I am annoyed about?Hint: It's not ...Wanna know what I am annoyed about?<BR/><BR/>Hint: It's not the dong.<BR/><BR/>It's Tito letting 23-year-old Clay Buchholz -- a young kid the team was going to pull IN THE 9TH INNING OF A NO-HITTER AT FENWAY PARK last season because of a high pitch count and concern about his shoulder -- go another inning after already throwing 94 pitches.<BR/><BR/>Was it against the Yankees in a September pennant race game? No. It was against the fucking Rays in mid-to-late April.<BR/><BR/>I don't give a fuck what the score was or how well he was pitching. <BR/><BR/>113 pitches for Buchholz on April 26 is fucking stupid. I know Tito won't continue this throughout the season, but it's Dusty-Baker-ruining-Kerry-Wood's-career stupid.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-28194354438359748102008-04-27T09:18:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:18:00.000-07:00You guys are amazing.Remember Guthrie last season?...<I>You guys are amazing.<BR/>Remember Guthrie last season?</I><BR/><BR/>Please.<BR/><BR/><A HTTP://WWW.BASEBALL-REFERENCE.COM/BOXES/BOS/BOS200705130.SHTML HREF="" REL="nofollow">Guthrie</A> was 85 pitches thru 8. And the score was 5-0.<BR/><BR/>Clay was at 94 thru 7. And the score was 1-0.<BR/><BR/>You got any examples that are actually similar?allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-61373493127681332262008-04-27T09:14:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:14:00.000-07:00Jack: From your comments, you clearly are not unde...Jack: From your comments, you clearly are not understanding what I'm saying. <BR/><BR/>I'm taking Clay's age, the Sox's concern for his shoulder, the calendar, how very well-rested the bullpen was, etc., into account.<BR/><BR/>We disagree. Fine. <BR/><BR/>But please stop with the "hindsight" stuff.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-40333204093612182452008-04-27T09:01:00.000-07:002008-04-27T09:01:00.000-07:00Addenda: from the Globe this morning:Reason 7: "Iw...Addenda: from the Globe this morning:<BR/><BR/>Reason 7: "Iwamura...lined a changeup to the track in center in the third inning - the only fair ball hit in the air by the Rays for seven innings..." <BR/><BR/>Reason 8: "I felt I was getting stronger as the game went on, I felt my location was getting better, and I started incorporating my slider later in the game, another pitch added," said Buchholz.<BR/><BR/>Edes: "It was hard to quarrel with that decision, until Iwamura sent one over the fence."<BR/><BR/>Thanks, Gordon. Exactly.Jack Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12129607755816264057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-15684607238303486332008-04-27T08:45:00.000-07:002008-04-27T08:45:00.000-07:00You guys are amazing.Remember Guthrie last season?...You guys are amazing.<BR/>Remember Guthrie last season? Pulling him probably helped get the Orioles manager fired. Which have you seen more: a pitcher who is breezing getting his game lost because "modern baseball" dictates that you entrust your 9th to a closer even when the starter has shown no signs that he's lost it, or a case like last night, when a player who hasn't had a home run all year catches a mistake that turns the game around in the middle of a brilliant performance?<BR/><BR/>If we're talking the 9th, sure, I'll concede that when Papelbon, Rivera or Nathan is your closer, you pat Buchholtz on the back and say, "You're done." But as good as he is, Okajima is not Papelbon---if someone dings him, people are going to be all over Francona for lifting a pitcher who was still throwing extremely well. And with justification.<BR/><BR/>He was tiring---well, naturally. So what--all pitchers show some signs of tiring after the 4th or 5th. I guess you are of the opinion that no pitcher should ever be permitted to pitch more than 7 innings in a 1-0 (and by extension, 2-1,3-2...) game if there is a fresh arm in the bull pen. Really? Just last week you were decrying the failure of Sox pitchers to last 7 innings. Wow---pretty narrow range there: you stink if you don't go more than six, but the manager is an idiot if you go more than 7. <BR/><BR/>There are at least 6 good reasons to leave Buchholtz in:<BR/><BR/>1) The Rays hadn't hit him at all.<BR/>2) He showed last year that he could pitch a complete game.<BR/>3) He's a better pitcher than Okajima.<BR/>4) Okajima hasn't been exactly unhittable this season, especially lately.<BR/>5)It was the weakest part of the jays line-up, not the sluggers.<BR/>6) Even after the single, the runner on first wasn't a burner--the worst likely scenario would be two outs and men on second and third.<BR/><BR/>I detest the automatic pull when a pitcher, starter or reliever, has been dominant through the last inning. I think it's a decision that is too often driven by a manager's fear of exactly the knee-jerk reaction I read here. It didn't work. But it was not a bad move.Jack Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12129607755816264057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-14125624139368895932008-04-27T08:10:00.000-07:002008-04-27T08:10:00.000-07:00We turn the page, but these issues are always with...We turn the page, but these issues are always with us.<BR/><BR/>Disagreeing about these sorts of things is part of the game. <BR/><BR/>9Casey, sorry, I misread you! Thanks, Allan.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-47438554762709187742008-04-27T08:06:00.000-07:002008-04-27T08:06:00.000-07:001:40 today we turn the page.1:40 today we turn the page.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14809080115678512743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-89603447181610943742008-04-27T07:56:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:56:00.000-07:00L: Pretty sure Casey is agreeing with you. It was ...L: Pretty sure Casey is agreeing with you. It was time to move it along and go to the pen.<BR/><BR/>Yeah: worse decision here, yet I got more pissed about the first one. Maybe because it went on for multiple innings.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-36139819986760736142008-04-27T07:55:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:55:00.000-07:00Clay at 87 pitches thru 6. As he starts the 7th, J...Clay at 87 pitches thru 6. As he starts the 7th, Jeemer and MDC are wamring up. If Tito is sticking with HH, why warm these guys up? Why?<BR/><BR/>"Oh, so if Clay gets into trouble, Tito can go to the pen."<BR/><BR/>Well, it's a 1-0 game, so if that's the case, then Tito's going to need a quick trigger or else -- because it can be 1-1 with guys on base or 2-1 very quickly.<BR/><BR/>Clay gets a 1-2-3 7th and is at 94 pitches. Same deal with the 8th -- but now Jeemer and Bot are warming up. If Tito is not planning to use them, why warm them up? <BR/><BR/>Tito goofed and stayed too long with Clay. Maybe you let Wake or Schilling go 100+, but considering this organization's strict procedures with young pitchers and innings/pitch count, letting him throw 113 pitches when -- yes he was pitching great -- there is little or no reason to extend him -- is foolish. <BR/><BR/>There is game management -- but there is also season management. And Tito, who is usually so great at season management, effed up.<BR/><BR/>And now Bot, who hasn't pitched since Tuesday, will have to work today to not get rusty -- though the score may be Tampa 7-3. Better he gets his work in when he's trying to close out a game.<BR/><BR/>Nope, Tito should have clapped Clay on the shoulder, said thanks for an amazing 7 innings, and now we're going to the well-rested Jeemer and Bot (with MDC also out there).allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-86336050398812583982008-04-27T07:50:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:50:00.000-07:00and overwhlemingly ..the point was why bother he p...<I>and overwhlemingly ..the point was why bother he pitched great move it down the line :Jeemer and Bot....</I><BR/><BR/>Overwhelmingly people wanted him to stay in? Not in the game thread I was in. I thought we were all waiting for Jemmer and Bot. I sure was.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-76948820317710898112008-04-27T07:44:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:44:00.000-07:00HH:"He hit a good pitch, man. When I let it go, I ...HH:<BR/><BR/>"He hit a good pitch, man. When I let it go, I thought he was either going to take it or swing over it, but he was sitting all over it. Hats off to him. I threw a pitcher's pitch and he hit it."Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14809080115678512743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-46027248675534704302008-04-27T07:25:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:25:00.000-07:00I don't think argument should be abot pitchcount ....I don't think argument should be abot pitchcount ...more about Jeemer and Bot you have trusted for a quite awhile and its what they do.....if the game was 4-3 he would have pulled him in the 6th....9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-77692155017758829642008-04-27T07:16:00.000-07:002008-04-27T07:16:00.000-07:00I beleive I asked in the at the end ot the 7th if ...I beleive I asked in the at the end ot the 7th if anyone thought Clay was coming back out.......and overwhlemingly ..the point was why bother he pitched great move it down the line :Jeemer and Bot....<BR/><BR/>I couldn't watch rock city wb staples extra innings extra extra..<BR/><BR/>I was sick to my stomach....<BR/><BR/>Two games in a row . this one more confusing that first one , by far.....9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-82067644066494214082008-04-26T20:46:00.000-07:002008-04-26T20:46:00.000-07:00amen, l-girl and redsock.amen, l-girl and redsock.nixon33https://www.blogger.com/profile/03283528172781996570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-4707907190766654822008-04-26T20:39:00.000-07:002008-04-26T20:39:00.000-07:00Re hindsight, if you read the game thread, we were...Re hindsight, if you read the game thread, we were all wondering why Buchholz was still in there, calling for Tito to take him out as any good manager would have done. <BR/><BR/>Jack, you're not talking to baseball novices here. Give us more credit than that.<BR/><BR/><I>The decision to leave in any pitcher who's pitching that well is never dumb</I><BR/><BR/>Never? You believe that?laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-56509705550268248952008-04-26T20:34:00.000-07:002008-04-26T20:34:00.000-07:00I only leave HH is for his shutout. He was finishe...I only leave HH is for his shutout. He was finished after that first hit in the 8th.andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13080026360873456937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-71183250476471493312008-04-26T20:03:00.000-07:002008-04-26T20:03:00.000-07:00Hindsight, my ass.I am well aware that you judge a...Hindsight, my ass.<BR/><BR/>I am well aware that you judge a move at the time it's made, not after the results are in. <BR/><BR/>Tito should have gone to the pen in the 8th. And I said so before Clay when out for the 8th.<BR/><BR/>See my comments at 9:26 and 9:30.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-77253799655522913102008-04-26T19:58:00.000-07:002008-04-26T19:58:00.000-07:00Can't blame anybody for that one.Maybe YOU can't.<I>Can't blame anybody for that one.</I><BR/><BR/>Maybe YOU can't.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.com