tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post9062675500032898284..comments2024-03-15T23:25:52.517-07:00Comments on the joy of sox: Bruce Jenkins Wants To Know Why You Drive On A Parkway And Park In A Drivewayallanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-35708922368360645182011-03-20T18:36:29.011-07:002011-03-20T18:36:29.011-07:00Thanks, Allan! That helps a lot. Now if I can jus...Thanks, Allan! That helps a lot. Now if I can just keep that in my head. Perhaps a helpful way of doing that for me (and for others like Jeremy) is to think of it as a grading scale. 75 = C, 80 C+/B-, 85 = solid B, 90 = A, 95 = A+. <br /><br />Now...I just need some devices for doing the same with ERA+ and VORP and WHIP. At least that would be a start!Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720293202890878993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-82399169610265806622011-03-20T18:27:31.077-07:002011-03-20T18:27:31.077-07:00I still don't know what is a good OPS from a b...<i>I still don't know what is a good OPS from a bad one.</i><br /><br />Someone listed them this way:<br /><br />.750 - Mediocre<br />.800 - Serviceable<br />.850 - Solid<br />.900 - Great<br />.950 - All-Star<br />1.000 - Pujols <br /><br />Boston's team OPS last year was #1 in MLB: .790.<br />The AL average was .734.<br /><br />AL 2010 OPS Leaders<br />1. Hamilton (TEX) 1.044 <br />2. Cabrera (DET) 1.042 <br />3. Bautista (TOR) .995 <br />4. Konerko (CHW) .977 <br />5. Beltre (BOS) .919 <br />6. Cano (NYY) .914 <br />7. Scott (BAL) .902 <br />8. Ortiz (BOS) .899 <br />9. Choo (CLE) .885 <br />10. Longoria (TBR) .879allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-63614142940696444102011-03-20T17:29:58.935-07:002011-03-20T17:29:58.935-07:00It might have been more in the Bats column that ra...It might have been more in the Bats column that ran throughout the season. As <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CEFD7153CF935A25754C0A9669D8B63&scp=19&sq=baseball+statistics+ERA&st=nyt" rel="nofollow"> here </a>.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720293202890878993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-124451788044926612011-03-20T17:23:58.352-07:002011-03-20T17:23:58.352-07:00Here is a link to the first column in that series:...Here is a link to the first column in that series:<br /><br /><a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A05E7D8123BF935A25757C0A9669D8B63&scp=9&sq=baseball+statistics+ERA&st=nyt" rel="nofollow"> Keeping Score </a><br /><br />It ran throughout the season.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720293202890878993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-78962470387882763462011-03-20T17:13:11.619-07:002011-03-20T17:13:11.619-07:00BTW, the NYTimes began running a regular column la...<i>BTW, the NYTimes began running a regular column last season that explained and relied on these "new" stats, so perhaps these are becoming more mainstream and will someday replace the "old" stats as the common language for baseball fans.</i><br /><br />This is a column I'd like to see Allan write for a news or sports site one day.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-83910787652967233742011-03-20T16:24:22.864-07:002011-03-20T16:24:22.864-07:00I am still working through all the comments here, ...I am still working through all the comments here, but had to respond to this:<br /><br /><i>I would assume that someone who has been reading JoS for 5 years would be somewhat of a stathead -- or at least be open and receptive to new ideas -- but maybe that's a misconception on my part.</i><br /><br />I am not a stathead, and I admit that I just cannot remember what some of the stats mean or what is good or bad, as Jeremy says. I have learned some well enough to make sense of them---like WHIP and OPS, but to be honest, I still don't know what is a good OPS from a bad one. <br /><br />Could be just my inability to learn new things as easily as I once could---like learning a new language is so much easier for kids than for adults. But I am still trying and certainly not dismissive of how these stats can be valuable to assessing a player's value to a team. I just read along and hope something sticks!<br /><br />BTW, the NYTimes began running a regular column last season that explained and relied on these "new" stats, so perhaps these are becoming more mainstream and will someday replace the "old" stats as the common language for baseball fans.Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720293202890878993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-30219747696327074532011-03-19T17:23:05.582-07:002011-03-19T17:23:05.582-07:00Oh man, he even managed to screw over the baseball...Oh man, he even managed to screw over the baseball player he quoted! I'm glad you posted the clarification. <br /><br />I also enjoyed this thread. I would hope that everyone who frequents this blog knows we can respectfully discuss and disagree.<br /><br />About baseball, that is. :)laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-63631609768269199262011-03-19T12:23:25.750-07:002011-03-19T12:23:25.750-07:00A commenter in Pos's thread:
"That quote...A commenter in Pos's thread:<br /><br />"That quote from Chipper Jones is taken out of context. He isn't talking about statheads; he's talking about the trolls who frequent the AJC's website and write things like "Stick a fork in him." As Jones well knows, his internet defenders use advanced stats to make their case for him. For example, his ability to take a walk, as reflected in his on-base average, shows him to be more valuable in the lineup than a quick glance at his batting average would make it seem. Defensive metrics also show him to be a better third baseman than is generally assumed.<br />So way to go, Jenkins. Not only are you trading in cliches, but you have to take quotes out of context in order to even do that."<br /><br />****allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-47800714705693685052011-03-19T09:51:47.168-07:002011-03-19T09:51:47.168-07:00Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.
A difference of opinion...<i>Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.</i><br /><br />A difference of opinion is not an argument.<br /><br />An alternate point of view is not an insult.<br /><br />***<br /><br />I have enjoyed this thread.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-1938232792512554342011-03-19T09:22:51.614-07:002011-03-19T09:22:51.614-07:00I'm going to show those comments to my wife. S...<i>I'm going to show those comments to my wife. She thinks I'm too wordy sometimes. ;)</i><br /><br />She may be right, maybe sometimes you are. ;) But I always am.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-41376490847719774852011-03-19T08:19:54.043-07:002011-03-19T08:19:54.043-07:00Baseball is very conservative. Instant replay is ...Baseball is <em>very</em> conservative. Instant replay is another perfect example. I don't have any numbers to back up these comments but I believe the general consensus among fans and baseball writers -- the same ones we disagree with here -- is to implement a replay system beyond home run calls. Even <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5245891" rel="nofollow">Don Denkinger</a> and <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5263364" rel="nofollow">US President Obama</a> support replay in baseball. We have the technology to make it relatively painless. Instead, Selig continues to dig in his heels because he doesn't want to hurt the integrity of the game. Huh?<br /><br /><em>Oh sure FenFan, say what I meant in a fraction of the words, while I blather away. Way to be succinct. :)</em><br /><br />I'm going to show those comments to my wife. She thinks I'm too wordy sometimes. ;)FenFanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02348863925130603048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-56684196125231978502011-03-19T07:40:57.334-07:002011-03-19T07:40:57.334-07:00Why are people who hate advanced stats so interest...<i>Why are people who hate advanced stats so interested in the underwear bloggers wear? ...</i><br /><br />:>)<br /><br /><i>the nonathletes line at the end is nonsensical. </i><br /><br />True, but it's a clue to what he's really saying. Athletes are tough guys, real men. Statheads are, you know...<br /><br />Signed, one of the most beautiful levees Tim has ever seenlaura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-7855978132550525162011-03-18T22:53:40.069-07:002011-03-18T22:53:40.069-07:00Over at Beyond The Box Score, the paragraph was po...Over at <a href="http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/3/17/2056525/it-wont-be-long-before-we-get-the-first-wave-of-nonsense-from-stat" rel="nofollow">Beyond The Box Score</a>, the paragraph was posted and there was this comment from lightbulb:<br /><br />"I think I'm going to buy that URL<br />fourthdayundies.com. I’ve been wanting to start a saber blog, just didn’t have the inspiration for a great URL. Thanks Jenkins!"allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-53660459903290397142011-03-18T22:48:20.550-07:002011-03-18T22:48:20.550-07:00Posnanski highlights the same quote in My Mother&#...Posnanski highlights the same quote in <a href="http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/03/mothers-basement-tapes.html" rel="nofollow">My Mother's Basement</a> (in which he talks about the actual basement and the fun he had it in as a child) (my emphasis):<br /><br />I've always liked and admired the work of Bruce Jenkins. But the top quote is so annoying and bizarre and convoluted and maddening ... how could anyone fighting for the integrity of resplendently crappy stats like batting average, wins and RBIs call ANYONE ELSE a "stat-crazed dunce?" <b>Why are people who hate advanced stats so interested in the underwear bloggers wear?</b> ...<br /><br />Also ... the nonathletes line at the end is nonsensical. Does Bruce think that athletes invented batting average and RBIs? Does he think Walter Johnson sat at home and devised the archaic rules to define a pitcher's win? Lou Gehrig said "we ought to give an RBI to the guy who drives in a run?" I never stop being amazed by how much people who hate stats because they're "flawed" quote so much more obviously flawed stats.<br /><br />More than anything, though, I have to ask: How could Bruce really think that one of the biggest cliches of our time -- the blogger in the mother's basement cliche -- was invented by Chipper Jones? ...<br /><br />My mother's basement was a wonderful place. It is, in so many ways, where I became a man. I visit there often in my mind. I'm usually wearing pants.<br /><br />***allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-54866852985185605732011-03-18T21:07:22.741-07:002011-03-18T21:07:22.741-07:00I tried discussing the meaninglessness of pitcher ...<i>I tried discussing the meaninglessness of pitcher W-L with some people recently and it was completely futile.</i><br /><br />I have said W-L is totally useless, but maybe it is .01% useful. (Maybe.) It tells you something, but not very much. There are too many other noisy variables to make W-L that important in analysis. And there are other stats that can tell you more about the exact same thing you are hoping W-L will do.<br /><br />Why look at something through the end of a straw when you can enjoy the view through a super-wide picture window?allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-20378935633221152572011-03-18T21:03:24.794-07:002011-03-18T21:03:24.794-07:00For tens of thousands of years, drawing crude line...For tens of thousands of years, drawing crude lines in the dirt with a stick meant something. So did grunting for hours at each other in mono-syllables. Now it all means nothing because a bunch of quiche-eating, PBS-bag-toting elites are trying to reinvent the way we communicate by using universally-accepted shapes as "letters" and grouping them together into "words" that have "meanings" and when presented in a precise order can convey "thoughts" and "feelings"?allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-25766499441498046032011-03-18T20:30:07.241-07:002011-03-18T20:30:07.241-07:00As for the general acceptance of these stats, I ca...As for the general acceptance of these stats, I can't see that ever happening. At least not in this generation or the next couple...although the internet and the way teams evaluate players will go a long way in determining that. The sustained success of the Red Sox over the past few years should be used as a benchmark for teams going forward to model their player scouting/evaluation...<br /><br />I tried discussing the meaninglessness of pitcher W-L with some people recently and it was completely futile. Stuff like:<br /><br />"His team picks him up if he's pitching well so he'll get a win"<br />"If he gets a loss its probably because he gave up too many runs"<br />"Well, you have to look at his ERA too...he could be lucky sometimes, but still, only the best get to 20 wins"<br />"If your team wins 20 games with you on the mound, that's pretty good"timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041184236514293677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-91548477664892004312011-03-18T20:25:59.361-07:002011-03-18T20:25:59.361-07:00say I am an ugly dyke
You're one of the most ...<i>say I am an ugly dyke</i><br /><br />You're one of the most beautiful levees I've seen!timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041184236514293677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-38306547437813972172011-03-18T20:24:49.603-07:002011-03-18T20:24:49.603-07:00WOW.
I owe a large part of my knowledge of these ...WOW.<br /><br />I owe a large part of my knowledge of these crazy newfangled stats to JoS and Allan (and of course, the Red Sox in general) using them - I knew they existed, but actually seeing them used led me to look them up and actually understand what they are.<br /><br /><i>For hundreds of years, burning garbage meant something. So did CFCs, landfills and the milk man. Now it all means nothing because a bunch of environmentalist whack jobs are trying to reinvent waste management?</i><br /><br />/feebleattempttimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041184236514293677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-84802097900067805162011-03-18T17:34:18.288-07:002011-03-18T17:34:18.288-07:00I think that is something the stat community -- fo...<i>I think that is something the stat community -- for lack of a better term (we all use stats, RBI and batting average are stats) -- needs to focus on or consider (and I have read discussions here and there). How to break through to the average fan.</i><br /><br />Maybe someone will find a way to make it fun and easy for fans. But you're talking about an entrenched culture (sports) and the general culture that is trending ever dumber.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-29676143708221415662011-03-18T17:30:32.292-07:002011-03-18T17:30:32.292-07:00Laura read FJM and said it was "terrific"...<i>Laura read FJM and said it was "terrific" and "wow". This is huge!!!</i><br /><br />Oh ha ha, not really huge. You linked to a very good post, I can always appreciate that. But I couldn't read a steady diet of that, it would grow old very very fast.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-61433856890167650042011-03-18T16:22:44.954-07:002011-03-18T16:22:44.954-07:00FJM on Jenkins, August 2008.
It's posts like ...<a href="http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/08/bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuce.html" rel="nofollow">FJM on Jenkins</a>, August 2008.<br /><br />It's posts like that what created the Legend of FJM. <i>Damn.</i>allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-74964100534052785882011-03-18T16:18:09.062-07:002011-03-18T16:18:09.062-07:00Lots of people got to learn the hard way what type...<i>Lots of people got to learn the hard way what type of language is acceptable in here.</i><br /><br />I don't think it was a question of language. I'm sure Jeremy's questions are not uncommon among a lot of baseball fans. <br /><br />I would assume that someone who has been reading JoS for 5 years would be somewhat of a stathead -- or at least be open and receptive to new ideas -- but maybe that's a misconception on my part.<br /><br />Better ways of thinking about the game and measuring player value and contribution are certainly not going to take hold until more people understand the thinking behind those ways -- and are able to ask what might seem like dumb or naive questions.<br /><br />I think that is something the stat community -- for lack of a better term (we all use stats, RBI and batting average are stats) -- needs to focus on or consider (and I have read discussions here and there). How to break through to the average fan.<br /><br />Because even though all of the old guard will eventually retire and die, there are plenty of young fans reading Jenkins and Morgan and CHB and adopting the same attitudes.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-8800328118243642792011-03-18T16:07:56.976-07:002011-03-18T16:07:56.976-07:00I just read this - wow. Terrific stuff.
OMG!!!!!!...<i>I just read this - wow. Terrific stuff.</i><br /><br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />Laura read FJM and said it was "terrific" and "wow". This is huge!!!<br /><br />March 18, 2011 -- a historic day in JoS history.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-9018645119047543852011-03-18T16:04:06.675-07:002011-03-18T16:04:06.675-07:00several slices of heaven from FJM
I just read thi...<i>several slices of heaven from FJM</i><br /><br />I just read this - wow. Terrific stuff.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.com