Peter Gammons says the White Sox are also interested in Manny Ramirez, in addition to the Giants, Padres and Dodgers. Jeff Goldberg of the Hartford Courant passes this along:
The White Sox are reportedly attempting to trade for Angels starter Ervin Santana, who could then be flipped to Boston, perhaps with 23-year-old righthander Brandon McCarthy, for Ramirez.Michael Silverman (Herald):
According to multiple sources, the Red Sox are close to a satisfactory deal for Ramirez but still have not concocted one good enough to justify trading away David Ortiz' primary source of lineup protection. Talks with the Angels, Rangers, Dodgers, Padres, Giants and possibly the White Sox have been productive but no team, or pair of teams, has yet come up with the proper mix of young and proven talent that the Red Sox could live with.The Globe hints there are "strong indications" that the Sox would pay at least a portion of Ramirez's salary. (Well, if they trade him, they sure ain't gonna pay all of it.) ... Jonathan Papelbon wants Manny to stay.
Speaking of "protection", a SoSH lurker named "Laschelle Tarver" looked at the numbers for Ortiz since 2003 without Manny in the lineup. He found that Ortiz played in 55 games in which Manny did not have an AB. The Sox went 33-22 (.600) in those games.
In 186 AB, Tiz hit .301 and slugged .624 with 17 HR. Over a 162-game season, that projects to 50 HR with 133 RBI with 133 walks. ... In 2006, he slugged .636 with 54 HR, 137 RBI and 119 BB.
SoSHer "Crazy Puppy" adds that
Ortiz hit behind Manny for all of 2003, a good chunk of 2004 (including the playoffs), the first few months of 2005 and most of September 2006. Ortiz put up a .983 OPS hitting behind Manny in 2003, a .958 OPS during the part of 2004 that he hit behind Manny, a .960 OPS when he was behind Manny in 2005 and an OPS over 1.200 in September of '06.Also, Gordon Edes writes that the Red Sox
I'm not suggesting the loss of Ramirez will have no effect on Ortiz, but the impact is dramatically overstated by a lot of people. Plenty of hitters put up terrific numbers without having Manny Ramirez batting behind them, and Ortiz is one of them.
are nearing the completion of a deal with J.D. Drew that would pay the free agent outfielder $14 million a year for a total package of around $70 million if he stays with Boston for a full five seasons.
Jack, I think you pointed out earlier that having guys on base when Ortiz and Manny come up is the best 'protection'. Pitchers then have to be around the strike zone. Makes the 1,2 and 8,9 guys all the more important. As much as I loved AGon's fielding, there's no hiding his rally-killing .299 OBP and league-worst RISP. But he wasn't alone. Remarkable how the 1-9 pitcher-killing lineup of 03/04 and most of 05 turned into Swiss cheese. Would be nice if after it's all said and done that the Sox return to a 'keep-the-line-moving' crew.
ReplyDeleteAnd in the MVP post, I wrote about how well Manny hit last year with complete dreck in the 5-hole.
ReplyDeleteThe only time protection might matter -- like bunting -- is in specific in-game situations.
(I'm assuming those Crazy Puppy numbers are correct.)
Remarkable how the 1-9 pitcher-killing lineup of 03/04 and most of 05 turned into Swiss cheese.
ReplyDeleteInjuries had a lot to do with that, especially in 2006.
In 2006, Ortiz batted with 485 men on base, 9th most in MLB. The next Sox on the MLB list are Lowell (19th, 449), Loretta (25th, 443), Ramirez (56th, 406) and Youkilis (58th, 405).
If Yook and Loretta came up with so many guys on base, maybe our 8-9 guys weren't so bad. (Yook batted all over the place though.)
AL ranking: Ortiz 4th, Lowell 11th, Loretta 16th, Ramirez 33rd, Youkilis 34th.
(Who batted with the most ROB last year? Good ole Slappy McBluelips, with 534, followed by Ryan Howard at 509.)
Also, the three consecutive 900+ run seasons were nearly unprecedented in baseball history, so we shouldn't expect that too much of the time.
5 years for JD Drew when did the five year contract come into Theo's vocab.
ReplyDeleteI am going to have a hard time rooting for this chump.......
if you are going to trade Manny to the white sox can we at least ask for Dye.........Jesus Christ we are going to give away a hall of famer..
I just vomitted in my mouth.............
ReplyDeletewhile watching sportscenter Steve Phillips said the red sox are interested in Bonds.....
I hear you Redsock, but aren't you looking at a counting stat, which is directly related to total AB's? Ideally, what is needed is the % of AB's a guy came up with runners on, where he was hitting in the lineup (And what he did with them. And close and late .....)
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't worry about Bonds -- why would we be interested in him when we have the DH Extraordinaire on our team?
ReplyDeleteIf it somehow happened, it would compromise my Redsox fandom -- and that's saying something.
I hear you Redsock, but aren't you looking at a counting stat, which is directly related to total AB's? Ideally, what is needed is the % of AB's a guy came up with runners on, where he was hitting in the lineup
ReplyDeleteI thought the same thing.
On a separate note, damn, would I ever love for the Sox to show real interest in Bonds, just because it would piss off so many fans, including a large percentage of Joy Nation. (And our esteemed host, don't tell me you haven't had the same thought!)
I can't imagine that they would really want him, but it would be too sweet.
I posted the AB with ROB to show that our big guns -- or at least most of the guys near the top of the order -- did come up with the most guys on base.
ReplyDeleteIdeally, what is needed is the % of AB's a guy came up with runners on, where he was hitting in the lineup (And what he did with them. And close and late .....)
I covered some of that in the MVP post. I know I can get # of guys on each base, I'll see if I can find % of PA with ROB.
I'd love Bonds in Boston. L-U-V.
Hmmmm, I'm sensing you're not a big Bonds supporter.
ReplyDeleteOh baby, this kind of fun is just too easy. All that's needed is a mention of Bonds possibly coming to Boston.
ReplyDeleteYou guys have a real sadistic streak that I hadn't detected before. It ain't pretty. You're lucky I already voted today.
LOL, very good Jack, and very true. But don't hold my sadism against Allan, this blog is solely his. I'm only a guest, just like you.
I would say Jack Marshall and others must have a masochistic streak if you'd rather have a team without Barry Bonds than with him. I wonder who else you'd (theoretically) pass up. Ty Cobb? Babe Ruth? Madly immoral, those two.
Meanwhile, I'm still gaggin over that David Wells centerfold image. And you think I'm a sadist!
Yep, Bonds in Boston. I can see it. Late innings, Sox at bat, camera shows Bonds and Schilling, standing side by side, leaning on the dugout railing, watching the action, Schilling yap, yap, yapping in Bonds ear. Bonds with that look. Bonds turns and says, "Jesus, Schilling, don't you ever shut up?"
ReplyDeleteYes, it would be lovely, plus he'd take all the media heat off Nancy.
I'd rather see Wells nude than have dinner with Coulter.
ReplyDeleteI'd rather see a nude Wells eating than listen to one minute of Coulter.
...
Rose was placing bets while managing, wasn't he?
The sheer entertainment value of Bonds in Boston boggles the mind.
ReplyDeleteBonds vs the CHB?
Gold!
If Bonds had decided to retire instead of starting to juice, he'd still be a sure-fire Hall of Famer.
ReplyDeleteCould we have a poll on what influences teen-age boys, please? I want to know if more of them bulk up because they think it will make them better at sports, or because it might make getting laid easier. Just askin'.
ReplyDeleteOh right, I forgot Jack is all about the role model angle.
ReplyDeleteI feel the doping epidemic is a function of a hypercompetitive society that values winning at any cost, and the images of bulked-up men that surround young athletes (much like their female counterparts are surrounded by images that encourage eating disorders).
Jack blames Barry Bonds.
Please note, this is not sarcasm!
Also please note, Babe Ruth had no choice about what he advertised or didn't. In those days the press kept his secrets for him.
Woti makes a good point.
ReplyDeleteAlso, my comment above assumes that there is a doping epidemic. I don't know that there is. It could be more of the usual anti-drug hysteria. Just say no, blah blah blah.
the Beatles didn't cause teenage drug use in the 60's, but as role models and idols, they contributed to the problem, and have admitted as much, in their solemn middle-age.
ReplyDeleteThis just goes to why you and I can't discuss these things, Jack. I don't think there's anything wrong with most teenage drug use; it is often a positive part of growing up. What a few middle-age men say once they're past that stage doesn't mean much to me.
Having spent a lot of time with teenagers in my adult life, I've concluded that role models mean very little to them. Younger kids may seek adult role models, but teens are generally only interested in their peer group. Their adult models are usually ones who reinforce the values of the peer group.
All that aside, my criteria for ballplayers is only the work they do in baseball. Period. Until every thing everyone does is laid bare for us all to see - players, fans and members of the media - and that's a world I don't want to live in - I won't judge anyone's ethics.
Not sarcasm; distortion by over-simplification.
ReplyDeleteNot that either, by the way. I thought in an earlier discussion about Bonds and steroid use, you actually did blame Bonds for a supposed epidemic of doping among youth. Perhaps I misremember it, my memory does suck.
That memory problem comes from all that drug use....
ReplyDeleteCould be. Or early-onset Alzheimer's, also in my family. Either way, I have no regrets. :-)
For the record, I am also middle-aged, and my life is as peppered with loss as befits my age. However, I maintain my open attitude towards teenage experimentation. Most kids who use some drugs don't grow up to be addicts, just like most adults who consume alcohol are not alcoholics.
By the way, there were Double-D role models for girls as far back as Jayne Mansfield and Rosalind Russell. The wafer-thin models concern me more than the implanted ones. You need money to get implants. You only need a wooden spoon and a toilet to starve yourself.
Propsed New Rule!
The Baseball Hall of Fame be about baseball!
What a concept.
Role models and celebrities are very powerful in shaping attitudes and culture. I'd be surprised if there are any reputable psychologists or culture scholars who dispute that.
ReplyDeleteIt's part of that thing called "common knowledge". Whether or not there's any evidence for it, whether or not it's true, is another story.
I think it's more likely that celebrities - who is annoited for fame - is a product of culture than the other way around.
Jack, I don't discount the influence of role models, but simple logic tells me that a kid is more likely to be directly influenced by what the kid sitting beside him is doing. Plus whatever attitude the kid has towards parental and authority pressure. I'm not convinced that a totally squeaky-clean pro athlete environment would negate the other peer and environmental pressures (plus the biological urges that need attention).
ReplyDeleteJane Russell, yes. But whoever you name, there were busty influences in earlier eras.
ReplyDeleteBut these days, Marilyn Monroe would be considered a fat slob and made to drop at least 50 lbs. I see that as a very sad trend, much more damaging than the proliferation of implants - although both are symptoms of the same disease.
Woti, well said. Jack, please note that Woti re-stated and expanded on what I said earlier re adult role models and the peer group. Perhaps I didn't explain it fully enough.
That statement about Marilyn is oft repeated, but it just isn't true.
ReplyDeleteJack, I truly had no idea it was ever repeated, never mind oft-repeated. Not that I imagined I had a wholly original thought, but I've never heard anyone else say it.
I'm quite familiar with what Marilyn Monroe looked like. (You'll have to trust me on that one.) She could never get a job in today's modeling industry. One needn't be Boomeresque to be considered zaftig in that biz.
I don't completely discount the influence of role models. I just think you and others over-rate their influence. That opinion is based on extensive personal contact with teenagers, rather than reports about them. I do think the role models kids choose reflect the values of their peer group, and not the other way around.
Enough of this. Enough for me, anyway.