I turned on WS 5 in the fifth inning and sheets of rains were falling. I could not believe the umpires were allowing the game to continue. Tampa Bay scored the tying run in the top of the sixth inning (I'm sure the umps heaved a sigh of relief) and out came the tarp. They could not resume the game last night, so the remainder of Game 5 is now set for tonight.
Reading this SoSH Thread about Bud Selig (as well as the lengthy WS thread starting here), I have to admit that I cannot paint the Used-Car Salesman as the huge idiot I usually do.
Once the game began -- was everyone fooled by a conservative weather forecast? -- Selig followed the rule book. There seems to have been a genuine failure to communicate between Selig, umpires, team officials, managers, players, media, and fans about how the game would be treated if it was delayed/suspended. I will also state that a World Series championship should never be decided by a game that lasts fewer than nine innings.
The Phillies clearly have the advantage for the rest of Game 5. They get to bat first and they get to bat last. Obviously, the game should have been suspended much earlier than it was. But that cannot be undone. And while it would be in violation of the rules, I'm wondering if the best solution is to wipe out what was played of Game 5 and simply start the game over.
182 comments:
Selig said after the game that had the Phillies been ahead 2-1 in the sixth when the tarp went on the field, they would not have been awarded the win, and that the game had to go nine innings (despite what the rule book says).
A better question to ask: Had Carlos Pena made out instead of tying the game with a single in the top of the sixth, would the umps have let the game go on?
Looking through the rules, there doesn't seem to be any basis for tossing out the score and starting over. The game could've been called after five innings but wasn't -- there's no way to go back now.
It's a suspended game under 4.11(d)(1) and has to get completed at a future date under 4.12(a)(5)(i). Rule 4.12(d) specifies how suspended games get played (resumed at the exact moment of suspension, with lots of elaboration), and it doesn't permit a do-over.
If that weren't enough, the note to Rule 4.12 says: Any regulation game called due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12 (a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its entirety. Rule 4.12(a)(5)(i) is precisely what applies here, so no replay.
MLB's mistake was letting the game start at all or letting it progress far enough to become a regulation game under 4.12(b). Once that happened, resuming the game tonight is their only option under the rules.
I don't have a problem resuming the game in the bottom of the 6th. They're going by the rulebook. What might need to change is how this situation is handled in the rulebook.
In the end it kind of evens out, if you think about it. The Rays get a, what some might call a cheap run, or a fraudulent run, in the top of the 6th as the elements prevented the players from playing to their full natural abilities.
So they get that run. The game is tied. We resume the game, begin at the bottom of the 6th, and the Phillies, as you said, get to bat first and bat last. Phillies pitchers will throw 3 innings while Tampa will need to throw 4 innings unless Philadelphia makes the bottom of the 9th unnecessary.
One way or another, tonight will be very, very interesting. A 3.5 inning sprint, all tied up... Don't know who will pitch, don't know who will lead off the inning (pinch-hitter for Hamels)... Can't use David Price immediately because his spot would come up in the 7th...
Never in World Series history has there been a 3.5 inning (regulation) game. Tonight we'll see one.
Had Carlos Pena made out instead of tying the game with a single in the top of the sixth, would the umps have let the game go on?
From what Selig stated post-game, he would have told the umpires to continue the game in the bad weather had Pena not singled home Upton to tie the score.
IMO, the game should never have begun - playing in cold weather is one thing, but playing in cold, WET weather is another. One slip may mean a groin pull or other injury that takes a key player out of the game.
Don't know if you saw this SI article that does a pretty good analysis, along with appropriate praise and blame:
Unconventional Thinking: MLB makes right decision to cancel
As for the Used-Car Salesman persona, I liked this part:
"Selig, in perhaps his most disingenuous moment of the entire press conference, said, "These fans obviously came and bought tickets for a night game, so they deserve to come back and see a night game." Right. Because the scheduling of World Series games is done taking into account, first and foremost, the convenience of the attendees. Because fans have demanded 8:30 local time starts for years. Because when World Series games are played in the Pacific time zone, MLB gives a rip about those people's work schedules."
The game will be a night game because Fox says so, and for Selig to sit there and say what he said insults everyone's intelligence. Just be honest and say that the game will be a night game because MLB doesn't control its own scheduling. As if the city of Philadelphia, and people holding tickets wouldn't be perfectly happy with a 7 p.m. start. Or 2 p.m. Or 9 a.m. That comment, to me, was the worst thing said last night, and goes a long way toward letting the world know who runs baseball.
Good historical perspective from Alan Schwarz.
MLB's mistake was letting the game start at all or letting it progress far enough to become a regulation game under 4.12(b).
This was the point I wanted to make.
I can imagine baseball not being thrilled with the possibility of tossing 3 or 4 innings into the trash can and starting over from stratch -- probably not what they'd like to do with a WS game.
So, the way the current rules are written... a game that is less than five innings old, if the rain stops the game and they can't resume, would be replayed in its entirety at a future date.
A game that goes longer than five innings where one team is leading another ends as an official game.
A tie game after five innings is suspended and will resume at a later date.
Correct? If so, it sounds like that needs to change.
Of course, a lot of things need to change. Television inflexibility, etc., start times, how the games are broadcast, making the games more available to those without cable, etc. Psst. There still are people who don't have cable television.
Correct?
Sort've. It's a bit like the infield fly rule: it's supposed to get called a certain way, but it still has to get called that way in order for it to happen. The rules currently permit an indefinite rain delay.
The game that started at 10:00 pm should have been cancelled as well.
I heard both teams were asked before the game what they wanted to do and they both said to start it......
For some reason 3.5 innings won't end till 11:00 pm ....
World series has turned into a television nightmare.....games should start at 7:00 no reason to start any later,besides ratings, its a joke....
Do they still stop serving beer after the 7th tonight?
This is cool. No matter how it got here... This game is cool.
That was me.
Balfour's warming up... So is Howell.
And I have the hiccups.
Sut and OB on the international feed say this is "a sprint to the finish" -- then Sut says it'll be "a fine ending to the 2008 season".
Ummmm, Sut, this is not Game 7.
and with that i tune in the buffalo feed with faux.
TBR: 000 101 xxx - 2 5 0
PHI: 200 00x xxx - 2 4 1
Looks like Price is up now... Not surprising.
better:
TBR: 000 101 ... - 2 5 0
PHI: 200 00. ... - 2 4 1
it's weird to watch this as carefully as i am -- and not be scoring.
It's funny... No national anthem, but they'll probably do GBA In... One inning.
It's funny... No national anthem
YAY!
alright, suspended game game thread!
i have been absent from media - is this the first WS game to be stopped and started on another day?
the phils could play for about an hour, win, and celebrate ... bizarre
alright, suspended game game thread!
Yay! A game thread!
And a Jenkins double!
i have been absent from media - is this the first WS game to be stopped and started on another day?
This is the first suspended World Series game ever.
Allan, yes - in fact, I'm pretty sure this is the first game that was ever interrupted at all once it started.
yeah, what ish said. :)
Price and Howell warming.
How've things been in Chez L-Sock and the GTA, Allan?
Iwamura drops it! Phillies take the lead!
I'm curious to know the answer to JoaT's beer question above.
How bizarre would it be if the game stays tied and they end up playing 9 innings tonight after all?
[Iwamura drops ball]
er.... well, it could still happen!
And Ball-four is gone. Howell to the rescue.
It would have been cool also, if they stayed tied deep into extra innings and it ended up being the length of a regular game.
pretty quiet here. was in the city using some birthday book store gift certs today. L is out.
we actually had some light snow flurries this morning! and when i parked the car in toronto, some cars in the lot had snow on them. must have been from further north.
howell is not pleased.
i mean ball four is not pleased.
we'll see about howell
So Balfour goes an inning and a third and gives up a run.
We had the tiniest, finest snow flurries this evening. I go outside and feel one on my face and thought wait a minute... this isn't your run-of-the-mill rain drop.
looks like matson in T7
NW New Jersey (not where I am) had a few inches of snow yesterday - lots of downed trees and power outages.
Speaking of weather, I was at Game 3 on Saturday (I'd signed up for the lottery to buy tickets on the Phillies' site a few weeks ago) -- not pleasant! But an exciting game, although I think I'm more excited about having seen it now than I was at the time.
McCarver said the Rays have been "penalized" because they're playing in a national league park.
Amazing how some locations in western New York have already received well over a foot of snow. This past storm system and lake effect snow. That'd be so weird to have snow every day pretty much.
lame rays allowing a SB on a 136 play
Thus endeth perhaps the most anticipated and famous bottom half of the 6th inning in history.
perhaps?
phooey - seeing political ads during the buffalo commercials. one anti-obama and some local one. (i'm told obama is not ready for the white house yet (though apparently palin is)).
Hamels in line for the W, by the way. Still able to be the only pitcher in history to go 5-0 in the postseason.
(i'm told obama is not ready for the white house yet (though apparently palin is)).
Obama's $3 million half-hour advertisement/infomercial ran before the game. It was very, very well done, for an "infomercial". Looked like one of those high-budget documentaries.
Rocco ties the game with a dong!
no win for Hamels now.
FUCKIN A
Nope. No win for Hamels now. Couple minutes after I said it.
i was thinking about a hinske dong when rocco swung
Price warming quickly now.
Allan, who would you like to see win tonight?
i was thinking about a hinske dong when rocco swung
Intersting, throwing Howell up there to bunt.
In this situation Howell will actually execute the bunt. Those things happen in the world series.
i don't really care, but i guess i now want tampa to win (tonight anyway)!
So now Madson's gone and it's Romero to the rescue.
well, we'll have no shortage of moves/strategy tonight!
i don't really care, but i guess i now want tampa to win (tonight anyway)!
I think it'd be cool for the Phillies to do what the Rays did to us. Rays win tonight. Go back to the Trop, win Game 6, then Philly comes back and wins Game 7.
As far as it goes right now, I'm up for anything. I still don't want the Rays to win the Series, though.
redsock you aren't watching the international feed on sportsnet?
fyi re playing 9 tonight:
longest WS game by innings is 14 (red sox and ruth beat brooklyn in game 2, 1916).
no, watching fox on a buffalo station. i am in a no-sut zone!
Ahh, no idea who they were but it sounded more soothing than buck/mccarver.
And the Fox camera angle is (well, was when i saw it - might have been in tampa) god awful
wow -- daring shit from bartlett -- and close
Wow! What a play.
And the Fox camera angle is (well, was when i saw it - might have been in tampa) god awful
They're back to a more normal camera angle in Philadelphia. But if this goes back to the Trop, rest assured that assward camera angle will be back.
But Bartlett had some big balls for trying to score from second on that.
TB has to hold them...probably will get shut down by lidge for two, then might have a chance against the lesser half of Philly's 'pen. If it gets to that point we may see Moyer or Myers.
I don't care who wins, I just want there to be 8 or more runs so I win the over/under I bet on on monday =)
Bartlett wasn't even running that hard!
But Bartlett had some big balls for trying to score from second on that.
They showed the replay, Zimmer was at 3b waving him in!
That's a good thing about the Red Sox not in the World Series... You can bet objectively with people.
not hard to third, no way.
McCarver refers to J.C. Romero as J.C. Martin, who hasn't played since 1972.
Man, everyone's smacking the ball around tonight!
So now Howell's gone. Brad Chadford to the rescue.
looked like that hit the wall beyond the state farm sign, seemed like a dong, i guess not.
Scott Eyre and Chad Durbin warming for Philadelphia.
Price is back up for Tampa.
Victorino hit a grand slam in Game 2 of the ALDS. He's bunting right now.
McCarver says he doesn't think he should bunt. He kept trying to bunt... Gets a 1-2 count, bunt is off, he grounds out to second to get Bruntlett to third. Buck lauding the at-bat now.
felix single up middle, with infield in, 4-3 phils.
wow, great grab by Iwamura!
Derek Jeter is sitting in his living room watching that play thinking man... Wish I could do that.
Romero was allowed to hit... Dobbs goes back to the bench. Very interesting strategy in general, for sure.
pedroia-esque!!!
TBR: 000 101 1
PHI: 200 001 1
Lidge is warming now.
234 for duh rayz
Wow, a game thread and I didn't even know! Cool!
As much as I am indifferent with respect to who wins the Series, I think it would be wrong for the Phillies to win the Series based on a 3 and half inning game where they get 3 more outs than the other team. I hope the Rays win this one.
That DP was HUGE. HUGE!
fuckton
There was no GBA, by the way.
There was no GBA, by the way.
No anthem. No GBA.
This is my favorite game of all time.
Did Buck really say Crawford was 0-3 in this game before he got that hit? Does his performance on Monday really have anything to do with today? (Apparently not.)
Insurance dong, pls.
Aybar takes over for Pena at 1st base.
And Price is in.
Close.
C'mon utley....i need my over!
Listening to Phillies radio. Harry Kalas at the mic.
So are you all rooting for the Phillies? Odd to be in a game thread where not everyone is rooting for the same team...
Kalas has a way of making Game 5 of the World Series sound like a regular season game on a lazy summer afternoon.
Ehh, I don't really care. I just bet that it would be 8 or more runs so I want one more run in! And I don't think they'll get it off Lidge.
Howard - finish this postseason on a high note!
I'm rooting for the FKR.
Harry Kalas at the mic.
That sounds dirty.
So are you all rooting for the Phillies? Odd to be in a game thread where not everyone is rooting for the same team...
I'm letting things happen. I want the Phillies to win the Series, but I wouldn't mind the Rays taking this to Game 7. How's your late October, Amy? Get any snow out there?
Really, Allan? I thought you had said you wanted the Rays to lose last I checked. Or, like me, do you just want them to win this game so the series continues?
Tim, how much did you have riding on this bet?
90 feet closer to me winning 10 dollars!
just tonight. i'll see how i feel about game 6 when game 6 starts.
We had a few flurries, Ish, but just a momentary thing. Damn cold, though. How are things in Maine? Toronto? Any snow up north?
$8.50
big money for me!
ehh I won 20 on the Bs last night so I'm good.
And this concludes my brief history of sports betting. That isn't proline.
OK, three more outs, and if no scoring, no more baseball til spring. :(
Amy, the lightest of flurries. To the point where I had to decide whether it was actually snow or not. Happened this evening.
Lidge v
Longoria
Navarro
Baldelli
(Bartlett)
My car was coated in a layer of flurries, and windshields were icy. Up here in Waterloo.
I'm spending a couple days up in Waterloo so I'm not at home with my gloves/ice scraper.
Luckily I found another, crappier ice scraper in my car. But my hands were chilly after that.
ehh I won 20 on the Bs last night so I'm good.
You didn't bet they'd win 1-0 did you? That was the first time since, I think 1936, that the Bruins won back-to-back 1-0 games.
I've had to scrape off frost a few times. Nothing else yet. Well, I made my sister do it. I was giving her a ride at 7 AM.
heh no i just bet on the win. (including OT). theres a regulation win category, but i didnt want to be that risky.
yeah they were good games. but thomas can't stand on his head forever.
anyway enough about this. we can discuss Bs for the long long winter, after the next 3 outs!
(delayed response)
I'm rooting for the Rays. But I won't lose any sleep if the Phillies win tonight.
World series being won at home - kick ass.
This has my heart beating a touch faster, interestingly. Finality.
i wont cry if tb loses.
a good friend of ours from brooklyn (now in london) is a huge phillies fan (we watched joe carter dong in 93 at their apt. good thing they drank (a lot)!)
I love being able to pick up AM radio stations at night from far away.
Two.
I will be more sad that baseball is really over than that the Rays lost.
My Phila. relatives will be happy.
a huge phillies fan (we watched joe carter dong in 93 at their apt.
Man, that must have been crushing. I can't imagine being so close only to lose on--
oh, wait, yes I can.
Hinske probably will bat next.
Nope. Zobrist.
Game going to end at the time of a normal reg season game.
I will be more sad that baseball is really over than that the Rays lost.
I certainly relate to you there. Definitely.
That joe dong was fucking epic.
Also L was going to college in philly in 1980.
Navarro keeps things alive with a base knock.
that was when she saw a game at the vet -- giving her one more park than me. grrrrrr
So was the game before the joe dong, where "Wild Thing" blew the lead and the jays scored like 6 in the 8th or something.
ooo shit, navarro on.
rut roh lidge - don't think about losing
Kind of torn with feelings. It doesn't feel like the Rays are just going to finish this one off without scoring again.
Zobrist up with Fernando Perez running for fat MDC.
Tying run on...maybe the baseball season has some life left?
If they tie it, I hope it goes for awhile.
she was pretty effing fast with the off button on that TV, i'll say that.
Perez steals second... Not surprising.
Perez has my $10 profit in his hands!
i do recall that 15-14 game was totally nuts.
Scoring position!
Well, Allan, guess you have to get to Philadelphia. Or else go to another park without Laura, which wouldn't seem like fun. Which others have you not yet been to?
hinske!
One more for Philadelphia.
One.
she was pretty effing fast with the off button on that TV
Sounds like me (and probably some others here) a couple of Sundays ago.
Two out.
Hinske to K for the third.
I want hinske to dong here, as a big FUCK YOU to Toronto fans.
L agrees
FUCK THE JAYS!!!!!!!!!!
This is certainly the way it should end if it does right now. Tying run at second with a perfect postseason hitter at the dish. 1 for 1 with a dong. How can you be more perfect?
Wow, that check swing was way less checky than the Utley one last inning.
weak shit from hisnke
0-2
Yikes.
There it is.
Phillies win. FKRs fucked.
Hinske Ked.
damn - no longer defending champs.
That's it. No more baseball...
Now I can simply obsess about the damn election...
See you all around the hot stove!
Phillies win it!
Fuck you Rays! The Red Sox will NOT face the World Champions 18 times next season!
How many days until Truck Day?
Finally won at home. Good stuff.
FOX showing the reaction of every player.
Truck Day is still to be determined.
One nice thing... All the kids can stay up and watch the celebration.
So now... the off-season has fully begun. Only ____ shopping days until Christmas.
"It's amazing, man. Amazing how one year ago the Boston Red Sox cut me loose and this year I'm a world champion."
J.C. Romero.
That's one guy who I feel very happy for. Struggles in Boston, gets DFA'd, goes to Philadelphia, pitches well, earns a set-up role... and now gets to feel the joy of winning a world series for himself.
All the kids can stay up and watch the celebration
Good point, ish!
Maybe Fox will figure out a way to have all elimination/clinching games spread out over two nights like this so that they don't end so late. 'Cause, of course, it's not like starting them earlier is an option.
Nice to see everyone for a couple of hours, see you during the off-season!
I'd guess Hamels for MVP.
phil said...
Two out.
Hinske to K for the third.
Wed Oct 29, 09:56:00 PM
No prognostication loving? :)
Watched the first pitch in japan, and the last in Philly. Good year, sucks this isn't our time. But, hey, it was a good ride. We'll be back next year and ready to kick some ass.
100% Timlin-free! (hopefully)
philstradamus.
I think the Phillies fans still had it in them to boo Bud Selig. Hahaha.
Wouldn't romero have gotten an 07 ring because he was part of the team for at least part of the year?
Wouldn't romero have gotten an 07 ring because he was part of the team for at least part of the year?
Yep. I'm pretty sure he has an '07 ring.
With any luck, the Rays will peak as the late-1990s Spiders and never amount to anything.
I guess there is a fuck you to jays fans of sorts, with Gillick winning the WS.
will any rays champs hats turn up on ebay?
Charlie Manuel sounds wasted
Hamels MVP.
LMAO. Selig: "Cole was 1-0, with a 2.77 earned run average."
Hamels MVP. Double CS-WS mvp, nice.
Anyway sleep time. See you soon, JoS!
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