tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post2853799569686972921..comments2024-03-28T07:19:18.670-07:00Comments on the joy of sox: Curt Schilling, Jack Morris, and the Hall of Fameallanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-77272349183480880612009-04-02T15:49:00.000-07:002009-04-02T15:49:00.000-07:00I just showed our Blyleven debate to a friend of m...I just showed our Blyleven debate to a friend of mine who is a Twins fan.<BR/>Hoo boy, did I get a tongue-lashing!Pepe Lepewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17719557482979323749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-67731627468617136392009-04-02T12:02:00.000-07:002009-04-02T12:02:00.000-07:00i think he belongs, but i am willing to keep him o...<I>i think he belongs, but i am willing to keep him out because of the whole the "circle me, bert" thing.</I><BR/><BR/>Hmm, I don't know what that is. I guess I just feel if you put him in, then you have to put some other people in, too. (Kaat, John, Morris, etc.)<BR/>You know if he Moyer has a decent season this year, he'll be over 260 wins? Holy Cow! Jamie Moyer?Pepe Lepewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17719557482979323749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-25525113147627613272009-04-02T11:43:00.000-07:002009-04-02T11:43:00.000-07:00He never won an ERA title (came in second twice, I...<I>He never won an ERA title (came in second twice, I think.)</I><BR/><BR/>2nd twice, 3rd once, 4th twice, 5th twice. and 7 times in the top 3 in shutouts. 8 of his 10 BRef comps are in the HoF.<BR/><BR/>i think he belongs, but i am willing to keep him out because of the whole the "circle me, bert" thing.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-42872365824787733612009-04-02T11:29:00.000-07:002009-04-02T11:29:00.000-07:00Pepe: You may be right, but ya gotta use something...<I>Pepe: You may be right, but ya gotta use something more than W-L to make the case. Well, you don't gotta, but ....</I><BR/><BR/>I know that was some of the same arguments made against Nolan Ryan and Don Sutton. Nolan Ryan was such a freak of nature. <BR/>I also got Blyleven never won a Cy Young. He finished third twice and fourth once (and one of those third-place finishes was a 17-16 year with a 3.16 ERA and 206 SO, must've been a weak year.). He never won an ERA title (came in second twice, I think.) I guess I just come back to "sustained period of excellence."<BR/>I see he was in the top four in strikeouts 12 years. That is impressive, actually.<BR/>I guess if you put Blyleven in, then you have to put in Tommy John and Jim Kaat.<BR/>...and Schilling and Morris and maybe Jamie Moyer.Pepe Lepewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17719557482979323749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-53869288584213565852009-04-02T10:49:00.000-07:002009-04-02T10:49:00.000-07:00He had five what I would call "good seasons," (20-...<I>He had five what I would call "good seasons," (20-17...</I><BR/><BR/>And a 158 ERA+ over 325 innings!<BR/><BR/>That's fucking amazing!<BR/><BR/>Check out <A HREF="http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=blylebe01&t=p&year=1973" REL="nofollow">his log</A> and some of the scores of games he lost:<BR/><BR/>In Apr: 4-2, 2-1, 3-2 (in a row!)<BR/>In Aug: 2-1, 2-1, 3-2<BR/>In Sept: 4-3, 3-0<BR/><BR/>That's some shitty luck.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-75358555409271396772009-04-02T10:42:00.000-07:002009-04-02T10:42:00.000-07:00Pepe: You may be right, but ya gotta use something...Pepe: You may be right, but ya gotta use something more than W-L to make the case. Well, you don't <I>gotta</I>, but ....allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-39730060256786037512009-04-02T10:23:00.000-07:002009-04-02T10:23:00.000-07:00Blyleven should be in the hall of fame for most of...Blyleven should be in the hall of fame for most of his career he completed more than a third of the games he started, with the game so specialized now , you have to wonder how many more games he might have won with a lights out closer, or lost who knows....<BR/><BR/>...Staying off topic, I know (the thread police are gonna come get me)<BR/>The basis for my argument is that Blyleven racked up a ton of stats by never getting hurt and simply starting a boatload of games (I believe he's 11th or 12th all-time.) I consider him the Vinnie Testaverde of baseball. (Don't laugh, Vinnie is 6th all time in passing yardage and 8th all time in touchdown passes -- great QB? HOF QB?)<BR/>Blyleven was a good pitcher, but he was never great, not for a sustained period of time. I base my HOF arguments on whether a player had a "period of excellence." Blyleven never did. He only had two seasons out of 22 I would call "excellent." (19-7, 17-5). He had five what I would call "good seasons," (20-17, 15-10, 14-10, 12-5, 11-7) and then he had *15* mediocre or poor seasons. 15 mediocre or poor seasons out of 22 shouldn't get you in the HOF in my book.Pepe Lepewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17719557482979323749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-2852182871008392392009-04-02T08:28:00.000-07:002009-04-02T08:28:00.000-07:00He can't finish a sandwich let a lone a baseball g...<I>He can't finish a sandwich let a lone a baseball game..</I><BR/><BR/>This amused me.<BR/><BR/><I>... with the game so specialized now</I><BR/><BR/>There has been a fairly steady decline in innings pitched by starting pitchers for 130 years or so. It's not something that began a few decades ago. I saw a nifty graph of the declining rates once. I wish I could find it again.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-68258038625660065282009-04-02T05:20:00.000-07:002009-04-02T05:20:00.000-07:00And as far as the Hall, the only thing Moyer has g...And as far as the Hall, the only thing Moyer has going for him -- and I mean, the <I>only</I> thing -- is that he has pitched forever.<BR/><BR/>I believe Seaver received the most first ballot votes of any HoFer ever. And Curt was his exact equal at not allowing runs -- 127 ERA+ -- which is a pitcher's main job.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-10732821318620381952009-04-01T20:13:00.000-07:002009-04-01T20:13:00.000-07:00Jamie Moyer?????He can't finish a sandwich let a l...Jamie Moyer?????<BR/>He can't finish a sandwich let a lone a baseball game..<BR/><BR/>Blyleven should be in the hall of fame for most of his career he completed more than a third of the games he started, with the game so specialized now , you have to wonder how many more games he might have won with a lights out closer, or lost who knows....<BR/><BR/>A little love for Curt from Redscok, I like it.....9caseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14214364466933716867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-71420531677251064822009-04-01T11:06:00.000-07:002009-04-01T11:06:00.000-07:00Morris was an average to above average pitcher who...<I>Morris was an average to above average pitcher who simply pitched a lot. The sum total of his qualification for the Hall if "he pitched a lot of games."</I><BR/><BR/>That's *my* argument for Bert Blyleven not belonging in the Hall of Fame. (Kind of off-topic, I know). I would put both Morris and Schilling (and maybe even Jamie Moyer) in the HOF before Blyleven.Pepe Lepewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17719557482979323749noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-81409749015044747952009-04-01T09:45:00.000-07:002009-04-01T09:45:00.000-07:00And at 199, he dwarfs the previous leader, Pedro M...<I>And at 199, he dwarfs the previous leader, Pedro Martinez (154).</I><BR/><BR/>One might even say he drowns him.Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00421785398444449007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-47930395199714714452009-04-01T08:54:00.000-07:002009-04-01T08:54:00.000-07:00doesn't know the facts... newfangled stats and "an...<I>doesn't know the facts... newfangled stats and "analysis"</I><BR/><BR/>Stats and analysis <I>are</I> facts.<BR/><BR/>Newfangled = things I am not familiar with.laura khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05524593142290489958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-66791952920486076872009-04-01T08:33:00.000-07:002009-04-01T08:33:00.000-07:00Anyone who includes Jack Morris in a discussion wi...Anyone who includes Jack Morris in a discussion with Schilling doesn't know the facts. Forget about newfangled stats and "analysis", Morris' ERA is nearly half a run higher than Schilling's and that's without making any adjustment for era or ballparks or anything like that.<BR/><BR/>Morris was an average to above average pitcher who simply pitched a lot. The sum total of his qualification for the Hall if "he pitched a lot of games."Fragile Freddyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16548516565701570833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-52416364792090274102009-04-01T06:13:00.000-07:002009-04-01T06:13:00.000-07:00In other news:While looking through BR for this po...In other news:<BR/><BR/>While looking through BR for this post, I learned that because Mariano Rivera has now pitched over 1,000 innings (1023.1), he qualifies for BR's Career ERA+ list. And at 199, he dwarfs the previous leader, Pedro Martinez (154).<BR/><BR/>Bot is at 254, though he has 771 innings to go.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-14965872587865070532009-04-01T06:08:00.000-07:002009-04-01T06:08:00.000-07:00I know many of the voting members are the same, bu...I know many of the voting members are the same, but (a) a pitcher can still have a great year and not be the one guy chosen for the Cy (and the writers know this) and (b) *some* progressive thought regarding stats has to have trickled down (or up?) to the media over the last two decades.<BR/><BR/><I>I'm pretty sure he'll make it ... but I admit I'd be pretty surprised if it was in the first ballot.</I><BR/><BR/>I agree.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-59421537452598715872009-04-01T06:05:00.000-07:002009-04-01T06:05:00.000-07:00I sent the link to Blair last night.His reply: "Tk...I sent the link to Blair last night.<BR/><BR/>His reply: "Tks. I havent voted for morris. Wont for schilling. Im a small hall guy."<BR/><BR/>I wrote back: "Fair enough. I'd probably count myself as a small hall guy too."<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>On some days, the "well-x-is-in-so-y-should-be-too" argument holds water; other days, it doesn't.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Also: Part of the point of the post was to note that the widespread idea of Morris as a "big-game" pitcher relies almost solely on one game (or one year). Given the same chances to be a hero the very next year, he repeatedly fell on his face.allanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673233312198832937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-64822726292178820342009-04-01T04:44:00.000-07:002009-04-01T04:44:00.000-07:00Again, great job breaking down the numbers. I agr...Again, great job breaking down the numbers. I agree that Schilling is not borderline as some would argue but I agree that he may spend a few years on the ballot before his name gets called.<BR/><BR/>I would assume that since he did not play in 2008 that his first opportunity would be the 2013 vote, so I would guess by 2015 that his plaque will be hanging in Cooperstown.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and on an entirely different subject, <EM>Slumdog Millionaire</EM> is worthy of the hype.FenFanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02348863925130603048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-36319258726077998892009-03-31T23:35:00.000-07:002009-03-31T23:35:00.000-07:00the only point you're overlooking is that the same...the only point you're overlooking is that the same biased members of the media who never gave him a Cy Young award are the same people who will be deciding if he's in the Hall of Fame. But of course the Hall is not a winner-takes-all thing like individual awards. Anyhow I'm pretty sure he'll make it (the K/BB alone would justify it and then some), but I admit I'd be pretty surprised if it was in the first ballot. Should be interesting.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14674759825438836962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-18276134674214535002009-03-31T21:55:00.000-07:002009-03-31T21:55:00.000-07:00I heard a radio caller say the same thing a few da...I heard a radio caller say the same thing a few days ago. Essentially it's "Morris was better than Schilling in the postseason (but I failed to actually check to see if that was true before calling)." This leads me to believe we could follow this trail to some article, probably on a popular sports site, that said this, leading people to blindly follow it.<BR/><BR/>When I look at Schilling, I see a first ballot HoFer--I don't see how it's a debate.Jerehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13448619048422750447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5730822.post-31086515878550923992009-03-31T21:33:00.000-07:002009-03-31T21:33:00.000-07:00Beauty work, redsock. I sure do miss this type of ...Beauty work, redsock. <BR/><BR/>I sure do miss this type of reporting from FJM!timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12041184236514293677noreply@blogger.com