Terry Francona
We met [Friday] morning ... I passed along my frustrations at my inability to effectively reach the players. ... I told them that out of my enormous respect for this organization and the people in it, they may need to find a different voice to lead the team.Larry Lucchino
[Did the Red Sox directly ask Francona to return as manager?] No. ... I think they wanted to know about how I felt about coming back. I think that's a fair way to put it.
Once I make up my mind, I think I'm ready. We could have waited through the weekend, but it would have just prolonged getting done what's needed to be done.
I'm not sure how much support there was from ownership, and I don't know that I felt really comfortable. ... It's got to be everybody together, and I was questioning some of that a little bit.
I just felt frustrated with my inability to reach maybe guys I've been able to in the past.
I wanted desperately for our guys to care about each other on the field. ... When things go bad, your true colors show and I was bothered by what was showing.
When I thought I tried to help make that better, and the coaches also, I just wasn't ever comfortable. You've heard me say all the time about going in one direction, and getting through challenges and meeting them together. ... It just wasn't happening to my satisfaction.
Ultimately you don't need a team that wants to go out to dinner together, but you need to have a team that wants to protect each other on the field and be fiercely loyal to each other off the field.
Some players had "a sense of entitlement".
This team became challenging at the end. I remember a day in Toronto, it was after the game we won I think 14-0, and I ended up having a meeting ... I thought we were spending too much energy on things that weren't putting our best foot forward toward winning. ... Teams normally, as the season progresses, there's events that make you care about each other, and this club, it didn't always happen as much as I wanted it to.
[Francona] did an exceptional job in conveying the strength of his feelings and his frustrations and his fatigue here in Boston.Theo Epstein
Lucchino's level of awareness of the problems was "quite low ... until very recently". His reaction? "Surprise. ... [T]here were some other emotions, but I'd rather just leave it at that."
I asked Tito ... whether he could take a couple of weeks off and go think about the things that didn't go right this year, what we weren't able to get out of this team ... [and if he] could come back next spring training with a new voice and provide some of the leadership that's needed to improve the culture in our clubhouse ... He thought about it and he said that he thought it was time to move on.Re John Lackey
It surprised me that his feeling was that extreme about it.
[W]e knew along the way it wasn't perfect. ... [T]here were some issues, and there [was] some frustration, that Tito had. I think when you're winning, a lot of that stuff gets covered up ...
Certain players we have that are leaders can step up and raise the level of their leadership even more. ... [W]e could have more accountability down there.
There was a lot of talent in that clubhouse, and we didn't get results commensurate with that talent.
Does the roster need a complete overhaul? I really don't think so. ... Do we need to make changes? Absolutely, and we will.
I think we have high standards in [conditioning]. I can't sit here and say those standards have been met across the board.
Theo Epstein:
He's always been demonstrative. It kind of looks bad on the field. It looks as if he's showing up his teammates. He was that way in Anaheim, too, so we knew that when we signed him. We also knew that he always apologizes the next day, that he's a great teammate except for those times he's rolling his eyes. But his teammates forgive him and they understand.Theo Epstein:
He's tried to change, but it's something he can't change. It's an emotional reaction. We'll continue to work with him on it.Terry Francona:
I don't think you can put in a guy's contract that ... he's not allowed to roll his eyes. I don't think anyone in the clubhouse had a problem with Lack, nor do I. I think we certainly wished that it would've gone better on the mound.Theo Epstein:
We have to ... see if there's things we can do with him, physically, to put him in a better position to have success on the mound. ... Then there's the mental standpoint.Anonymous Sources
One Red Sox player:
It was all right [clubhouse atmosphere]. Some guys had some issues, and everybody was on their own program. It was different [than other years]. People were taking stuff more personal. Sometimes it got out of hand ...One uniformed member of the team:
Josh [Beckett] has some real leadership qualities, but this time he didn't lead left, he didn't lead right, he led wrong.One prominent Red Sox player:
They don't need a leader. They need a babysitter.One Red Sox executive cited an indifference by some players to conditioning. "Gluttony," he called it.
Member of the Red Sox executive staff:
You have to go with a tougher guy. There has to be more of a professional atmosphere. There have to be rules.Red Sox Players
Dustin Pedroia:
I wish I could have played my whole career for him. ... [T]he biggest thing that I am upset with, and I think a lot of guys are upset with, is the accountability of each other. ... There are a lot of things that went on that [were] disrespectful ...David Ortiz:
Tito is a good dude. He might have had his problems with [ownership and front office], but I really don't know anything about that. ... In my situation, I never got in Tito's way and he never got in mine. He would remind me about some things sometimes when I really needed it.David Ortiz:
I know we have some players that [the organization thought were] worried about some other shit and sometimes there were certain things that no one in the clubhouse can control. I was trying and I have no issues. My only problem was when I started being benched [in 2010] and that was my only issue with Tito. Other than that we're cool.Clay Buchholz:
It was always just real relaxed. It was a relaxed atmosphere. ... I never even took it into consideration to even think about it. Whenever all the stuff started swirling around on the Internet and everything and on the TV, that's when everything clicked ... I might not have the same manager next year if this keeps going the way it's going.David Ortiz:
He probably had problems with some players. I can't really give you too many details about that. ... Trust me, the way things are going down right now here, they [players who were not giving 100%] will learn. They will learn. ... I'm pretty sure it's gonna be better for next year. ... I get along with pretty much everybody. [At] the same time I'm nobody to determine who does the right thing and who doesn't ... It's not like I'm anybody's babysitter or anything like that.Kevin Cash (2007-08, 2010):
I'm shocked. It's unbelievable. ... Whether you were David Ortiz, Dustin Pedroia or the 24th, 25th guy on the roster, which was me, he did everything in his power to make you feel like you were equal with everyone with the way he treated you. He just made you confident and showed you the value you had with this club. ... I don't see how you're going to find a better guy to deal with the constant drama that's always going on in Boston ...Media
Jackie MacMullan, ESPNBoston:
[Jacoby Ellsbury's] teammates like and admire him, but he keeps to himself, confides only in Jed Lowrie.Scott Lauber, Herald:
Can you blame him? His teammate two or three lockers to his left continued, as recently as two months ago, to publicly question Ellsbury's decision to retreat to Arizona last summer for treatment for broken ribs. Kevin Youkilis has always been a hot button. On occasion, his intensity and his honesty were his biggest assets, but not this season. The injured Youkilis showed up every day the way he wanted Ellsbury to, but he turned so sour and cynical that his carping and insistence on inserting himself into other people's affairs turned him into a detriment.
Then we have Ortiz, who ... didn't seem to grasp how damaging it was to publicly question whether Alfredo Aceves should be a starter instead of a reliever, and how it undermined both the manager and the general manager at a critical time of the year.
A source told the Herald that several starting pitchers would drink beer during games, and there was grousing among players about Francona's listed bus times to the ballpark on the road. Francona declined to discuss those issues ...John Tomase, Herald:
Strength coach Dave Page, long considered one of the best in the game, was not a fully utilized resource.Steve Buckley, Herald:
Free agent bust John Lackey's postgame pressers this season were as laughable as his pitching, what with all the excuses, and let's not forget the constant eye-rolling when his glove men failed to come up with the ball. ... Epstein said, "I don't think it's appropriate for excuses." ... Yet Lackey made excuses — and pointed fingers at others — and gets away with it.Gordon Edes, ESPNBoston:
[Francona] was already convinced ownership didn't want him back, which is why he was telling members of the organization he was finished the day before he was officially gone.Gordon Edes, ESPNBoston:
[T]here are two separate issues in play here. One is to pretend this all was Francona's call. ... The second is whether Sox ownership had probable cause to press for a change. Given the stories that have surfaced in the past couple of days ... the answer is an unequivocal, how-was-this-allowed-to-go-on yes.
Starting pitchers drinking in the clubhouse during games on days when they weren't pitching, which can leave one boozily indifferent to the plight of teammates after they've just lost in extra innings ... has been going on the past two seasons.
Alex Speier and Rob Bradford at WEEI have also been excellent.
21 comments:
Thanks for the summary. Though I notice once again, nothing from or about Varitek...or Gonzales.
I guess based on this, with some interpretation, we can say:
Ellsbury is a loner, possibly exacerbated by the media and Yook's comments from last year.
Ortiz has a sense of "entitlement" (he was benched because he wasn't playing well), and doesn't feel as though it is his job to deal with his teammates.
Lackey is pissing people off with his attitude.
Yook is a big bummer and was getting in people's business, and there is lingering resentment between him and Ellsbury.
Few on the team were interested in improving their strength or endurance.
Pitchers were drinking in the clubhouse on off days.
All of this was allowed to go on for awhile. Francona didn't worry when the team was winning, but then September's slide happened and he couldn't change the ingrained culture. One can easily imagine the depression and doom in the clubhouse and probably finger pointing. Sounds ugly.
Varitek and Gonzalez DID say stuff about Tito, how he should not be blamed, but it did not seem very interesting. Maybe I should include them anyway?
I did not like Tiz's comments, either. That was from a TV interview last night. He's a leader on the team and he should be somewhat of a policeman.
Edes's comment about pitcher(s) being "boozily indifferent to the plight of teammates after they've just lost in extra innings" clearly sounds like an actual incident.
The team had two extra inning losses in September:
Sept. 5: 1-0 loss to Jays in 11. They won 14-0 the next day and then Tito had the team meeting on the 7th. This sounds like our game. Beckett started that game on the 5th, so it wasn't him. Lester pitched on the 6th (would he be "boozily indifferent" the night before a start? Maybe.) Who started on the 4th and therefore would obviously NOT be pitching on the 5th no matter what? Lackey.
Other game: Sept. 10: 6-5 loss in Tampa in 11. Weiland started. And who pitched on the 9th? Lackey.
Interesting.....
Yeah, coming out with all this is the fact that Ellsbury is a quiet, loner sort. But what I sort of object to is that it always seems to be brought up in the context of how he might be one of the "problem" guys, and his withdrawn nature is how the problem manifests itself.
Honestly, if the clubhouse was as full of entitled, slovenly douchebags as apparently this year's Sox team was, I wouldn't blame him for keeping to himself.
Also, I gotta say any respect I had for Beckett is pretty much on fumes at this point. (Yes, I am assuming that he, with his influence and Alpha male role on the team, was one of the culprits. Some of the anonymous quotes and his obviously expanding weight throughout the season don't help.)
He'd better be giving some candid, look-in-the-mirror type interviews in the off-season and/or Spring Training for him to gain any of that credibility back (at least for me).
But I suspect he won't. He'll probably hide the entire offseason on his ranch/estate and then when the team comes back, not a peep will be spoken about how he was (apparently) the very embodiment of sloth--other than, of course, the always popular "let's turn the page," or "let's look forward and not dwell on the past." At that point I'd consider it license to put Beckett in the same basket as your everyday fat-ass white collar criminal or U.S. President.
Tito, after 2008 ALCS loss:
"But if there's ever a day where I don't feel like I can do my job, I won't do it."
So I guess when Tito was visiting Lackey on the mound, he wasn't saying "smoke 'em inside and let's go pound some Buds"?
Allan, thanks for putting together all these stories and quotes. If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, it sounds like Youkilis may find himself on the trading block and that Lackey and Beckett may find themselves being disciplined in some way. Any way we can get rid of Lackey?
As far as Ortiz, I didn't really read his comments to be as bad as you seem to find them. But it also may depend on tone of voice. He may never be one who leads or controls others, and if that's not his personality, it's hard to blame him for others' behavior. Of course, his griping about being benched and his public comments about Aceves are another matter all together.
I will point out that on an earlier post I predicted that Lackey would prove to be one of the ones that drove Tito crazy and eventually away. Not exactly brain surgery, but I think my comment was poo-pooed at the time. :)
Has anyone put together a short list of potential managers for next year?
Just saw this about possible managers. But I'm shocked that the obvious choice for the next manager not on that list: Tim Bogar!
Actually, the owners wanted to keep Francona and fire Bogar, but Tito said "If he goes, I go!".
The Herald and Globe had lists of possible candidates.
Cafardo says Bobby Valentine is precisely the no-nonsense manager this franchise needs.
Luckily, that will never happen because:
1. In late 2003, Valentine said he wasn't sure that Gump had made the wrong decision re Pedro.
2. John Henry has surely heard him in the booth on ESPN.
ON NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Buster Olney: "Bobby Valentine has support in at least one important corner of the Boston front office, and presumably, the Red Sox will interview him."
And yet with all this going on if the starters don't have an ERA above 7 in September, if Wakefield and Weiland aren't pitching multiple important games in September, the Red Sox are easily in the playoffs. Would all this have come out now? Would Francona be gone? If the clubhouse was so poisonous, why was this team the best in baseball for several months?
I will point out that on an earlier post I predicted that Lackey would prove to be one of the ones that drove Tito crazy and eventually away.
Tito has been very supportive of Lackey when his name has been brought up, even now. I don't see anything to point to Lackey being a major problem to Tito, even if he drives fans crazy.
Per Abraham:
It's mystifying, it truly is, how vociferously Francona and Epstein defend John Lackey. But they always do and I never got the remote impression that the players were tired of his act, either. He must do magic tricks and hand out gold bars the second reporters leave the clubhouse.
Any way we can get rid of Lackey?
I doubt there is much of a demand for a guy who put up possibly the worst season by a starting pitcher in Red Sox history.
The Red Sox would get nothing in valuable and would have to pay most of his salary to whatever team wanted to give him a shot. He can't possibly be this bad again next year (hahaha!); here's hoping he will be close to average.
At the beginning of the year, I thought to myself and told others (maybe even on here) that as much of a Red Sox fan that I am/always will be, this team has a MFY feel to it with the big FA signings (Lackey, Crawford) and selling the farm for Gonzalez. Big egos, not like the fun/laid back teams of 04-07.
I now see that this does appear to have been the case - the sense of entitlement, laziness, lack of giving a shit and complaining about bus schedules - all are (I am sure) NOT things that occurred in the first half of Tito's tenure.
It seems to me like the loss of people like Lowell, Manny, Millar, Cabrera, Schilling and additions of Yook (yes I realize he was a key part of 2007 but he has become much more of an asshole recently), Gonzalez, Lackey et al have really taken the 'soul' out of the team and made Tito's job that much more difficult. (I am not including Crawford in the above list, because despite being a high priced FA signing, his post-162 interview where he basically accepted blame for the shitty season, and the blown catch. I haven't read anything else about him being an asshole and I think he would have thrived in the days of Manny/Lowell etc.)
Bottom line is they're the Red Sox and I am going to root for them regardless of the composition and price of players and their personalities off-field. As long as they win ball games, thats all that really matters. It would just be a lot easier and more enjoyable to cheer for a team of loveable idiots as opposed to a collection of individual robot mercenary arse-holes.
Buster Olney: "Bobby Valentine has support in at least one important corner of the Boston front office, and presumably, the Red Sox will interview him."
I'd love to see Bobby Valentine's score on the simulated game exam that the Red Sox give him.
And yet with all this going on if the starters don't have an ERA above 7 in September, if Wakefield and Weiland aren't pitching multiple important games in September, the Red Sox are easily in the playoffs. Would all this have come out now? Would Francona be gone? If the clubhouse was so poisonous, why was this team the best in baseball for several months?
These are good questions. It's hard to believe that if our pitching had held up - if HH hadn't gotten hurt, if Wakefield wasn't totally ineffective, if, if if, pitching, pitching, pitching - and we had made the playoffs, that we'd be having this conversation, now or later in October.
Bottom line is they're the Red Sox and I am going to root for them regardless of the composition and price of players and their personalities off-field. As long as they win ball games, thats all that really matters. It would just be a lot easier and more enjoyable to cheer for a team of loveable idiots as opposed to a collection of individual robot mercenary arse-holes.
That's it, that's all there is to it.
However, if that moron Bobby Valentine manages the team, it will truly test the limits of my loyalty.
While the failure was obviously a team effort, I do blame Tito for taking his foot off the gas when the WC lead was sizeable in August/early Sept.
Continuing to allow Wakefield to go out there every few days, using relief pitchers in situations to "test" them as opposed to playing to win etc. all helped contribute to the "comfort level" and perhaps slacker attitude.
With these beer drinking rumors, I'm very curious to know what the fuck Lester and Beckett were doing all season, and why they sucked so hard in Sept. Beckett obviously ballooned as the season went on, but I never pictured Lester as someone who would engage in those activities. Again, narrow quote-reading and TV-watching from Canada view of the team.
MLB.tv - Has anyone else been duped by MLB again this season? The website is now requiring me to purchase Postseason.tv even though I specifically asked (and have in writing) if playoff games would be included in my Premium package. The answer from MLB was YES.
Their policy now states all postseason games are blacked out for MLB.tv subscribers. Seems they change their policies at will.
I would be even more livid if the Sox were playing and I couldn't watch the games. I do not have cable TV and thus have ZERO access to any playoff games and yet MLB blacks me out for something I paid for. Disgusting.
If I recall, the post-season was a separate package last year (and maybe has been for 2-3 years). I would say the first person lied or was confused.
made a submission to that globe rag on the red sox thing:
i would much rather watch september 2011 in eternity than read any of the garbage put out by CHB, Mazz or Cafardo. Worst Red Sox reporters in the world.
Anybody else hear Youk's comments on the radio (WAAF) about the pitchers needing to be a little heavier because they're going downhill off the mound and the extra weight helps them to throw harder/faster? WTF? I guess no one told Verlander he can throw faster if only he porks out a little bit (or Pedro back in the day for that matter).
i would much rather watch september 2011 in eternity than read any of the garbage put out by CHB, Mazz or Cafardo. Worst Red Sox reporters in the world.
Nice. And true!
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