What the Dodgers gave up was irrelevant. And it's not entirely certain that either Hansen or Moss will be above-average MLB players. Hansen, in particular, has been a disappointment.
That $7 mil was going to Manny anyway. Sucks that LA wouldn't eat at least some of it, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
Manny leaving sucks, really sucks. But what's done is done. Bay's a good player, and we just might get a wash out of the whole thing, as well as some more money to play with in the offseason. If things were really that bad with Manny and the FO, then he had to go, and the Sox got about as much as they could without giving up a major prospect.
I dunno. I feel weird about the whole thing. It's going to take a good long while to get some perspective on this thing, just like the Nomar trade.
But, remember, we've been waiting on Hansen for years now and given him plenty of chances.
I don't know how to rate Moss. I think he'll be lucky to do as well as David Murphy has done this year in Texas. Which reminds us how much we gave up in terms of prospects to get Gagne, which was a negative. Bay will be about even as a replacement for Manny this year (remembering he's a plus in terms of baserunning and maybe defense) and a positive for next year at the price. If he works out well, maybe we'll have him at a reasonable price for years to come.
No reliever added in, though, which sucks. From the Pirates' perspective, it seems like a great haul for Bay. For the Dodgers...eh. LaRoche is no slouch; I don't know about the pitcher. Might be about fair for two months of Manny.
From our perspective...I dunno. I'm in Manny Mourning.
I'm finally over fighting the fact that he's been a dipshit these last few days, but he was fun and he was awesome at the plate.
Given what we know now, personally, I think this deal is horrible. But we don't know everything. If Manny was such an incredible distraction then maybe this is worth it...?
Jason Bay is very good. I think Boston will learn to like him, after a little bit. Very good hitter (obviously not as good as Manny was, but probably not that much worse than Manny is), good fielder, very good baserunner (think Drew's type of speed but with better judgement). Our lineup for next year is almost set (Lowrie vs. Lugo is the only concern) and we haven't gotten any worse this year.
I like the deal. Would have liked to get a reliever, but I think this team can win a world series this year, and this sets us up well for the next few years a little bit better.
I think Manny had become such a massive distraction that Boston maybe didn't get as much for him as his market value. I was bummed we lost Brandon Moss; a good young player. Hansen? Who cares? He's meat. But, I do really like Jason Bay ... and being Canadian, I like seeing a Canadian for the Red Sox.
Considering the leverage (or lack thereof) the Sox had -- with teams knowing they desperately wanted to dump MBM and the Sox loath to have him around for the rest of this year -- getting Bay is pretty nice.
He's better in the field than Manny and should produce very similar to Manny numbers (38-39 yo Manny, that is) at the plate next year if not this one. And he's 8-9 years younger. Plus he's making $12.5 million less per year -- which can be used elsewhere.
I was hoping Hansen would stick and turn it around, but at this point, he's no loss at all, really. Moss? Who knows? So we deal our 5th outfielder and a pitcher who should be in AAA.
If NYY wants to shell out this supposed 4/100 contract that Manny is thinking about, more power to them. We'll be busy fightin' Tampa for the '09 division.
Not a slugger? Among active players, he's got the 26th highest slg (and that includes players like Bonds, Griffey, Piazza, Helton, Sosa, Nomar, Alou, and Sheffield). He's ahead of guys like Jermaine Dye, Matsui, Andruw Jones, and Derrek Lee.
So, realistically, he's a top 20 slugger. And he's moving away from a park that's a little tough on righties to one that is very easy on righties.
Let's hope Bay does okay with the transition to the AL, as well as the pressure of replacing a future HoF and playing in a Boston pennant race (with the team on a skid as he climbs aboard).
I was hoping Hansen would stick and turn it around, but at this point, he's no loss at all, really. Moss? Who knows? So we deal our 5th outfielder and a pitcher who should be in AAA.
But all that and the $7m seems like too much for Bay.
I guess they were serious this time about getting rid of him. Can't blame them, but I'll say this:
I read Schilling's radio comments on Extra Bases. He says Manny's mostly been a pain in the ass to his teammates for years. I'm not swallowing that 100%. First, it's Schilling. Second, there needs to be a bit more class about saying goodbye to Manny. If Schilling's mouthing off is something the front office enoucraged, or if there is any more talk from them about how awful Manny was, I'm going to be pissed.
Just say, "He made his decision" and let it go. Please.
I think it was a pretty fair deal for all involved. Mostly I think this after watching the SOSH thread and seeing three different commenters each disparage one of the teams involved for not getting enough in return. If nobody did well, then they probably all got about what they deserved.
Sad to see Manny go, but it was time. Hope Jason Bay can fulfill the promise this year and next, but his salary is very reasonable even if he flops. We won't miss Moss with Bay.... The only glaring negative is the lack of bullpen help, but I bet theo was a little gunshy after last year and we didn't have the leverage to get anyone thrown in on this deal.
Somebody on SOSH mentioned this, but the 12.5 mil Boston's going to have from next year isn't all Boston's getting off the books - Schilling, Tek and Timlin all come off the books as well. Even factoring in extensions for guys like Youk and Pedey, there's still going to be a nice chunk of change (maybe around 18-20 mil?) for the FO to play with after the season.
I'm listening to LA radio right now, and the host asked Nick Cafarto why Boston didn't try to ride out one more year with Manny and then just let him go. Hmm...maybe because just letting Manny go wouldn't get you somebody like Jason Bay?
zen, schilling doesn't need encouragement from the FO- I'm sure he said that on his own, I bet the "Manny being Manny" thing has bugged him for years and he finally felt like he could uncork because he isn't currently with the team and Manny essentially invited the negative publicity. Given Schill's reverence for the history and traditions of the game, I imagine him as just the sort of "purist" that can't stand Manny's antics.
I didn't think about the Rays thing. I guess there is some additional value from keeping him away from our division rivals.
Meanwhile, Wilbon says on PTI "Ken Griffey Jr. and his 600 homeruns will help the white sox."
I mean, Maybe Griffey improves the offense since they don't have to play Konerko, while harming the defense a pretty good deal. But I'm not sure how many of those 600 homeruns the White Sox are allowed to use.
So been looking at the numbers for '06, '07 and '08.
Bay has more hits, triples, HR's, K's 204 more at bats. So, the percentages are in Mannys favor but the youth and upward (we hope) growth is in Bays favor.
As for Schilling, I think his main beef with Manny is what he feels is the bs he puts Francona through on a yearly basis.
Wow, all the lurkers came out of hiding on this one.
I am just sad. I have nothing more to say. I am, as most here know, not a Billy Bean kind of fan; I am an emotional kind of fan. I loved Manny. I will miss him. I think Papi will miss him. I think this all sucks all around.
Poor Coco. If he had openly complained as much as Manny he would've put the F.O. in a tight place. Moss is gone and Coco still here. I wonder how he feels about that.
Bay doesn't even need to be a big impact at first. If we start winning again, Hurrah I say.
And I hope Tito doesn't plug Bay in at the four spot right away. Let Youk or Lowell play behind Ortiz until Bay is raking.
I saw the comment about the lurkers coming out and I am one of them. I am going to have to go home and tell my 8yr old son about this. He wears his Manny shirt with so much joy. What do I tell him? I understand about the business and the pros and cons, and I know Jason Bay is great, etc. I'm just sad about it.
nix, that pix (or one taken .03 seconds before or after) has been my desktop picture for a while. i was planning on changing it to an iceberg we saw in Newfoundland - i guess now is a good a time as any....
And I guess Oscar will be back for tomorrow's game.
sure logic, problems, numbers, prospects, and value, sure. you can explain it all to me over and over again. and i'd prolly agree, but im pretty fucking crushed right now. 29 year old man fighting tears...
A SoSHer posted this: "To top it off, the team no longer has to search for a LF next season. Moss and Hansen isn't going to land you a player of Bay's caliber."
I'm sad to see Manny go, but I really feel like there was no choice. It would've been better if it had never gotten to this point, but since it did, this was probably the best we could've done under the circumstances. I do agree with the SoSH posters saying that the worst thing about this deal is that it distracted us from making any other deals before the deadline, although I don't think things are all that dire. Hopefully we start to see the offense pick up with the distractions lessened.
I've seen a few people blaming Boras for this situation. Anyone understand that one? I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
I've seen a few people blaming Boras for this situation. Anyone understand that one? I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
If there was a decent chance the Red Sox would pick up the 2009 option -- and with a relaxed and happy Manny, they might have -- Boras (as Manny's new agent) get $0. I think the only way Boras can get a commission from Manny is if he becomes a FA.
So...... there is a theory that says Boras had to get the Sox to not to pick up the option. BUT if Manny stayed in Boston and hit a ton, the Sox could have picked up the option anyway, screwing up Manny's/Boras's plans. So they needed to force a trade too.
Manny's change of attitude came right after a meeting with Boras. Who knows what was said?
I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
The theory (which I don't have any opinion on) is that the whole thing did get Manny out from under the team options and allow him to be a free agent next year.
It's hard to imagine a $20m option being onerous, but it wasn't the money. The options took decision-making power out of Manny's hands in terms of how long he would play.
SoSHer 5belongstoGeorge: "So if all the Sabermetricians are happy, and if all the "respect the game purists" are happy, and if all the parasitic reporters are happy, and if all the whispering players are happy, then it is time to play ball. As someone else said, now there are no excuses or distractions."
Fuckin' A right!
Bay is coming into a "shiny, happy, non-poisonous" clubhouse, right? That should help with the pressure.
SoSHer 5belongstoGeorge: "So if all the Sabermetricians are happy, and if all the "respect the game purists" are happy, and if all the parasitic reporters are happy, and if all the whispering players are happy, then it is time to play ball. As someone else said, now there are no excuses or distractions."
Except why do I get the feeling that no one's really happy -- except maybe Pirates and Yankee fans?
Maybe I'm projecting.
Not to steal your thunder, RS. I'm eager to get back to baseball, too. But happy I ain't.
is it true that the players voted for manny to be dealt 23-1 (ortiz being the 1). they are talking about it at SoSH.
SoxScout posted that a radio guy named Mike Lynch said the Red Sox players voted 24-0 to get rid of Manny. Lynch was apparently going on what SoxScout said was "a huge spiel about shitty team play, Manny being a cancer, ect, ect."
SoxScout thought Lynch was being sarcastic, but he said it three different times.
My turn. I'm very sorry to see Manny in anything other than a RS uni, but I had a feling it was going to happen next year anyway, so I'm glad we got Bay. I think he was probably the closest thing we could hope for in terms of replacing Manny's numbers. The thing is, like Amy. I'm not an all-numbers guy. I loved the antics, the shit-eating grin, the what-the-hell-will-he-do-next atmosphere. But that's gone, and best of luck to him in the future, (just not when playing us). Now I'm just glad as hell this is all behind us, and can we please get back to WINNING some damn baseball games. I really hate that we're off tonight, I'm ready to move on to the next phase of Red Sox superiority. And who knew we had this many lurkers listening in on our conversations? I feel kind of violated.. :)
Do you guys know that Manny is going to decline arbitration? That means the Sox are going to have to give them 2 picks as well. We got completely hosed
HOF hitter, 2 solid prospects, $7M cash and 2 draft picks for ".284 in the NL" Jason Bay?
So with $27.5 million coming off the books at the end of 2008 (manny's 20 + schill's $14 - bay's $7.5), what are our chances of landing both Sheets & Sabathia?
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles. I don't think it's fair to put the debate in those terms. I buy all the prospectus and hardball times books, I read baseball analysts (and this blog!), but I thought Manny needed to go.
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles.
It is not an either/or thing. It never has been and it never will be.
When it comes to cars, can you only enjoy driving fast or only enjoy tinkering with the engine? No, people enjoy both and no one bats an eye.
Or with books, do you have to care only about reading the book or can you also like hearing about the creative process? Of course not, it's silly to suggest otherwise.
I agree fully with you. My post was poorly worded. I was responding to "in this case the people who care about intangibles were clamouring to get rid of him," which I didn't think was fair.
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles. I don't think it's fair to put the debate in those terms.
I agree re it's not either/or.
For many people, however, those are the terms of the debate. Manny's hair is too long, he's a space cadet, he's lazy, he's this, he's that, get rid of him.
You are not necessarily one of those people (I wouldn't know).
Amy's and Sosock's comments seemed to imply that fans thinking with their hearts wanted Manny to stay, while fans thinking with their heads (represented by numbers) wanted him to leave.
Okay I hear ya on the run to first base. However, only one player in recent days has had their running time to first base a topic of discussion on ESPN's Baseball Tonight.
They were talking about Manny. I think they said the average run was just of 4 secs and he was like 7 sec (again this number I am not sure of)
I know you're upset, most Sox fans are even those of us who thought it was time for him to go.
I made the run to first comment aabout Manny because it's like he just did it on what some players think are the no brainers to first. It was more than that, don't think?
What about the outfield? Do you think he lacked the talent and skill needed to play it well all time or did he lack a little desire at times?
I'm just sayin'...
However, we are all grateful that helped changed the ending to the movie Fever Pitch!
Shorey, I was completely opposed to dealing Manny. And I'm really upset. And the last thing I feel doing is discussing one of my favourite players with someone who "is just sayin" stuff that I find completely wrong, and a bit offensive.
Man, talk about your rough days today. It's almost a blessing that the Sox have the day off...the way they're playing, a loss tonight would be especially crushing.
Watching the Angels/Yankees game on FSN West, and the announcers are going on about the Legends Park area and how you can "feel the history there". I know what I said about the Yankees and how I'm trying not to put my disdain of them over any other AL team, but shit like that makes me vomit into my own mouth.
I'm not offended. However, I am sick of people parroting one-sided media bullshit as gospel.
Singling out Manny for something EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HAS DONE (AND WILL DO) is total media bullshit.
...
(Note: Using comments to direct people to your own blog is not considered good etiquette. If someone is curious about you, they can click on your name and see the link to your blog. Thanks.)
Jim Duquette is angling to be the new Steve Phillips, and was just saying that Jason Bay doesn't inspire "fear" like Manny.
Then have him wear a scary mask. Are we talking reputation or reality? If the offensive stats are that close, then any disparity in "fear" is imaginary and irrational. The "fear" that matters in this trade is management's fear, based on comments made by the player, circumstantial evidence and past conduct, that their clean-up hitter was a risk to quit on them mid-pennant race absent a commitment the team couldn't and wouldn't make. That's fear enough for me, and evidently, them.
I agree with Redsock's assessment of the trade 100%. The Sox didn't give up too much at all...they solved a problem with minimal disruption, and improved their options for next year. Hansen may well turn into a great relief ace, but the Sox couldn't wait for him.
Wow. Because 20HR 68RBI and a .398OBP in 365AB is so god damn annoying.
If ESPN's Baseball Tonight wasn't constantly telling us why we should hate Manny, we wouldn't have people like Shorey comparing him to Bucky.
Being hijacked by propaganda is one of the most dangerous things we can do. Eff the people who boo'd at Manny in the past week. They should be ashamed of themselves.
No question: stopwatching Manny to first was dirty pool. The guy has bad hamstrings....he has a beter excuse for jogging out pops and grounders than most players. Piling on, that's all it was.
im sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up. i think i have an idea what manny means about "peace".
So I assume everyone liked Manny's Bret Favre sign? Essentially we were more concerned about the controversy, the likelihood of a trade, the effect on the team, etc., than Manny was, and its his livelihood and profession. I don't think the situation was funny, no matter where you come down on it. Manny thought it was funny. And there you have it: the charm and the detachment. To me, the detachment became more infuriating than charming. It's not hard to believe others came to the same conclusion without being brainwashed by propaganda.
im sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up. i think i have an idea what manny means about "peace".
i did not grow up in boston, but have been following the team and media since 1976. amen.
Jack, I guess you will never get it. That humour and lightheartedness is much of what we love about him.
Remember all our old conversations about players who seem to enjoy the game - and life - and players who go through life with a furrowed brow and a scowl? Whatever everyone wrote there, same goes.
im sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up.
So I assume everyone liked Manny's Bret Favre sign?
Honestly, I don't give a shit. (Btw, I saw only a jpg somewhere.)
Manny thought it was funny.
Maybe that's how he's dealing with it, knowing he'd like to stay in Boston for the rest of his career, learning the team did not share his desire, and then having what seemed like everyone in the country -- media and fans -- shit on him.
I can't say I wouldn't be depressed and probably say FUCK ALL YOU PEOPLE!! more than a few times.
I have not been the biggest Manny fan for some time. I admit in my heart I've been hard on him because thought he could do even more. That no matter how good he is he could've even been greater. that's just me.
But the Favre sign is right up there with high-five to the fan...
Re "inspiring fear" and wearing scary masks, I remember Jeff Brantley on BBTN saying how stuff doesn't matter when it comes to a closer - what really matters is his attitude. He's got to have an attitude that batters are afraid of.
I'll take the stuff over attitude any day, thankyouverymuch.
Manny always seemed like the guy that didn't take shit all that seriously at times (remember his grill on eBay?), but still had a ceiling for shit that he could take before he started getting angry. It appears that he finally hit that ceiling this season, and things just got ugly to the point of no return. The Favre sign was in line with everything else in his career - high-fiving a fan mid-play, the mummy, and so on. Basically, every single thing Manny did that got publicity was reflected through your opinion of him. I loved Manny, so I thought they were funny. I'll admit to indulging him a lot, and why not? He isn't a bad guy.
On another issue, I'm always amused reading Yankee blog game threads when they play the Angels. We get good and mad when they beat the Sox, but Yankees fans react to the Angels like they're a combination of God, Allah, and Thor.
The same detachment that makes some fans so upset at the players is the same trait that makes some players good.
Manny has the perfect attitude/mindset for baseball.
Focused like a laser on the AB, but when it's done, it's gone. So if he K'd or GIDP, that never carries over to the next AB. So the pressure of trying to making up for past outs is not there.
And even if he hit a dong, that cannot help him in the next time up. Put it out of your mind.
Same deal with the drop and roll in the field and the laughter. The play is over -- it cannot be changed. Why not laugh at the idiotic play you made?
When it comes to hitting, Manny's mindset is absolutely perfect.
I've always thought Manny's attitude is perfect for baseball. The man plays a sport where you fail most of the time. Carrying your failure to your next AB can only hurt you. The more you can be in the moment, in the present, the better off you will be. (This is true in all sports, I think.) (And possibly in most things in life!)
Manny strikes out, he moves on. He hits a home run, he moves on. He isn't dwelling, stressing, re-living, whining. It's over, he's moved on.
Many fans and much of the media foolishly believe that how much stress they see in a player is a reflection of how much they care. A person who seems lighthearted must not care. Not caring equals not trying, and they end up disliking someone for the very qualities that make him a great ballplayer.
Meanwhile we all know how diligently Manny prepares for games, how hard he works.
People who don't care about their jobs don't work hard to prepare for them.
Shorey, I was completely opposed to dealing Manny. And I'm really upset. And the last thing I feel doing is discussing one of my favourite players with someone who "is just sayin" stuff that I find completely wrong, and a bit offensive.
I understand how you feel. I like Manny, too. I love his hair, and I think he catches too much flak for his defence, etc. When things deteriorated so quickly and got so ugly so fast in the last couple of weeks, I was just distraught. I felt like, "how could things be coming to this. C'mon, everyone, calm down." But, then I realize there's probably been a lot of crap none of us know about brewing for years ... remember the Red Sox putting Manny on waivers a couple of years ago? A while ago, when it became obvious that bridges were being permanently burned, I just thought, man, they have to get the best deal possible ... and I think they probably did under the circumstances, though I do think it's weird that the Red Sox are the ones trading a future HOF'er ... and they're also giving up prospects, too. Anyway, the whole thing kind of reminds me of the Nomar circus. I felt distraught over that, too, but ultimately, it didn't break the team.
maybe what he thought was funny was his taking the piss out of people that took his, shall we say "disposition" way too fucking seriously, and overly obssessed with every fucking action (GET THE STOPWATCH, MARTHA, MANNY'S RUNNING AGAIN!!!!) he made? seemed pretty obvious to me. i get it.
But, then I realize there's probably been a lot of crap none of us know about brewing for years ... remember the Red Sox putting Manny on waivers a couple of years ago?
There may have been other shit -- Gammo is busting out stories he's been sitting on for 2 years! -- , but I think the waiver thing was more the FO thinking that $20M could be spent on a couple of players to match Manny's production.
Amy's and Sosock's comments seemed to imply that fans thinking with their hearts wanted Manny to stay, while fans thinking with their heads (represented by numbers) wanted him to leave.
That's not what I meant at all. I simply meant that I don't care if Bay has equivalent numbers or even better numbers. For me, Manny was the kind of player I enjoyed having on MY team---based on his skills, his attitude, his personality. I respect numbers, but I don't think they are the only thing that matters. So yes, I agree---it isn't numbers v emotion, but a mix of both.
My oh my how life can get in the way of things. My parents and I were on our way up to the Portland area to visit my grandmother who had come down from northern Maine... Got into a bad car accident about three miles from my house. Luckily we're all okay. Bruises, etc., mainly. Car will probably be written off.
Oh, Ish, that's awful. But thanks for the perspective---good to remember that there are other things besides baseball. I am glad everyone is ok in your family.
My well-wishes to ish as well. I know firsthand that bad car accidents are nothing to sneeze at. Glad to hear everyone's okay and that the car can be written off. And yeah, those sorts of things do have a way of putting stuff into perspective.
Since this is practically an off-night game thread, I will tell you that we are eating the most awesome banana bread known to humanity. I don't even like banana bread, but this stuff is amazing.
It's banana-cranberry. We stopped at a farm stand/bakery today and they had all different types of b-bread. Allan loves it so I bought some.
It was. A busy road was closed so traffic was diverted to another road, which ends at a very bad intersection. The irony is, they just installed traffic lights today. Temporary, I'm sure, for the traffic. We were all thinking FINALLY, they put a traffic light in!
And then, of course, light turns green, the two cars ahead of us go, and then we go, and get by someone who ran the red light.
You're right, L. We all have things that happen to us that help put life into perspective. Certainly don't want any of you feeling any differently about Manny and the trade. This must've been a pretty awesome discussion.
I've got another FSN channel on now to watch the D-Backs/Dodgers, and I just had a sudden thought hit me: I'm going to get to watch Vin Scully announce a Manny Ramirez at-bat. That's all sorts of crazy and (sorry to say it) kinda awesome.
I've got another FSN channel on now to watch the D-Backs/Dodgers, and I just had a sudden thought hit me: I'm going to get to watch Vin Scully announce a Manny Ramirez at-bat. That's all sorts of crazy and (sorry to say it) kinda awesome.
So, does Vin Scully do all of his broadcasts solo?
I was watching the beginning of a Dodgers game on EI during our free preview recently. It was so weird seeing him do the game by himself. He sounded like he was calling the game on the radio, but it was on TV.
There's a great farm stand here. Every day we go around 4:30 to get our afternoon snack (plus other stuff if we need it): a plum for me, a peach for Harv.
Vin does indeed do all his games solo. Not sure if it's been that way since the 60s, but I wouldn't doubt it.
Lest anybody thinks Vin can't bring it like when he called Koufax's perfect game, find yourself video of the 4-HR game in 2006. Forgive my crudity, but he calls the everloving shit out of that game.
And the Sox pay the final $7 million on Manny's contract.
ReplyDeleteWe gave up much too much.
ReplyDeleteDodgers gave up nothing.
Not good.
Hansen will be Bucs closer next year with 30+ saves and I'm gonna kick a hole in the earth.
ReplyDeleteI'm upset. I like Jason Bay, but I could have waited for him.
ReplyDeleteThis sucks.
And PS if we're in the playoffs this year, I'll still think this sucks. I hardly think Manny would have prevented that from happening!
I also heard that the two options for 2009 and 2010 were dropped, so Manny becomes a rent-a-player in LA.
ReplyDeleteNot happy the Sox got no pitcher back in return.
We gave up much too much.
ReplyDeleteDodgers gave up nothing.
Not good.
What the Dodgers gave up was irrelevant. And it's not entirely certain that either Hansen or Moss will be above-average MLB players. Hansen, in particular, has been a disappointment.
That $7 mil was going to Manny anyway. Sucks that LA wouldn't eat at least some of it, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
Manny leaving sucks, really sucks. But what's done is done. Bay's a good player, and we just might get a wash out of the whole thing, as well as some more money to play with in the offseason. If things were really that bad with Manny and the FO, then he had to go, and the Sox got about as much as they could without giving up a major prospect.
I dunno. I feel weird about the whole thing. It's going to take a good long while to get some perspective on this thing, just like the Nomar trade.
Coming out of lurkdom to say:
ReplyDeleteI agree, l-girl.
I guess I'll be following the Dodgers. Wish they were still in Brooklyn!
So what was the point of this? Really, for Jason Fucking Bay? What was the point?
ReplyDeleteWhy'd we give up Hansen and Moss for the privilege of giving up Manny and cash?
It seems like a lot to give up.
ReplyDeleteBut, remember, we've been waiting on Hansen for years now and given him plenty of chances.
I don't know how to rate Moss. I think he'll be lucky to do as well as David Murphy has done this year in Texas. Which reminds us how much we gave up in terms of prospects to get Gagne, which was a negative. Bay will be about even as a replacement for Manny this year (remembering he's a plus in terms of baserunning and maybe defense) and a positive for next year at the price. If he works out well, maybe we'll have him at a reasonable price for years to come.
No reliever added in, though, which sucks. From the Pirates' perspective, it seems like a great haul for Bay. For the Dodgers...eh. LaRoche is no slouch; I don't know about the pitcher. Might be about fair for two months of Manny.
From our perspective...I dunno. I'm in Manny Mourning.
I'm finally over fighting the fact that he's been a dipshit these last few days, but he was fun and he was awesome at the plate.
Most of all, fun.
This fucking blows. Hopefully Bay will settle in nicely and we won't have a noticeable drop in production.
ReplyDeleteMore comments later when I digest this.
I'm also hoping to find out we got Grabow in the deal...
By the way, coolest handle ever goes to Musing.
ReplyDeleteGiven what we know now, personally, I think this deal is horrible. But we don't know everything. If Manny was such an incredible distraction then maybe this is worth it...?
ReplyDeleteguy from the Burgh here....
ReplyDeletenot a big Pirates fan, but follow the squad enough to give some info on Bay.
Good, but not Great in the field...has some speed to go into the gap, but lacks true arm strength.
Not a very emotional player [IMO] seems lacidasical at times at the plate, while not a typical 'slugger', he is a hustling doubles kinda guy.
Great in the clubhouse & the community and have never heard him talk about anything negative about being with the Pirates.
Good Luck with him.
Jason Bay is very good. I think Boston will learn to like him, after a little bit. Very good hitter (obviously not as good as Manny was, but probably not that much worse than Manny is), good fielder, very good baserunner (think Drew's type of speed but with better judgement). Our lineup for next year is almost set (Lowrie vs. Lugo is the only concern) and we haven't gotten any worse this year.
ReplyDeleteI like the deal. Would have liked to get a reliever, but I think this team can win a world series this year, and this sets us up well for the next few years a little bit better.
Yeah, I think I like this deal.
So Manny in pinstripes next year I guess.
ReplyDeleteI think Manny had become such a massive distraction that Boston maybe didn't get as much for him as his market value. I was bummed we lost Brandon Moss; a good young player. Hansen? Who cares? He's meat.
ReplyDeleteBut, I do really like Jason Bay ... and being Canadian, I like seeing a Canadian for the Red Sox.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm also hoping to find out we got Grabow in the deal...
ReplyDeleteI don't see him anywhere in the deal.
Manny may be selfish but he can hit the lights out and Bay is not gonna do well in Boston with pressure batting behind Big Papi
ReplyDeleteSo Manny in pinstripes next year I guess. You seriously think he's going to cut his hair and conform to the Yankee way? I say he goes to the Mets.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the leverage (or lack thereof) the Sox had -- with teams knowing they desperately wanted to dump MBM and the Sox loath to have him around for the rest of this year -- getting Bay is pretty nice.
ReplyDeleteHe's better in the field than Manny and should produce very similar to Manny numbers (38-39 yo Manny, that is) at the plate next year if not this one. And he's 8-9 years younger. Plus he's making $12.5 million less per year -- which can be used elsewhere.
I was hoping Hansen would stick and turn it around, but at this point, he's no loss at all, really. Moss? Who knows? So we deal our 5th outfielder and a pitcher who should be in AAA.
Thanks, zenslinger, yours is pretty cool too!
ReplyDeleteMan... I'm in shock. I can't even think about the rest of the season.
i still cant believe it...
ReplyDeleteIf NYY wants to shell out this supposed 4/100 contract that Manny is thinking about, more power to them. We'll be busy fightin' Tampa for the '09 division.
ReplyDeleteThis was a steal for who? The dodgers? Wait till Manny sees that left field for the rest of this year.
ReplyDeleteDid the Sox overpay for Bay, yes, however if the Rays were really in the mix for Bay then this deal is as much about keeping Bay from the Rays.
Am torn about this, I will miss the mummy and high five stuff but I will not miss the last two weeks that have been played out since 2004.
Not a slugger? Among active players, he's got the 26th highest slg (and that includes players like Bonds, Griffey, Piazza, Helton, Sosa, Nomar, Alou, and Sheffield). He's ahead of guys like Jermaine Dye, Matsui, Andruw Jones, and Derrek Lee.
ReplyDeleteSo, realistically, he's a top 20 slugger. And he's moving away from a park that's a little tough on righties to one that is very easy on righties.
Plus he's Canadian! Who doesn't love Canadians?
Where can I get a Canadian flag bandana in Boston?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the info on Bay, Doc.
ReplyDeleteLet's hope Bay does okay with the transition to the AL, as well as the pressure of replacing a future HoF and playing in a Boston pennant race (with the team on a skid as he climbs aboard).
Plus he's Canadian! Who doesn't love Canadians?
ReplyDeleteMe :-p
I was hoping Hansen would stick and turn it around, but at this point, he's no loss at all, really. Moss? Who knows? So we deal our 5th outfielder and a pitcher who should be in AAA.
ReplyDeleteBut all that and the $7m seems like too much for Bay.
I guess they were serious this time about getting rid of him. Can't blame them, but I'll say this:
I read Schilling's radio comments on Extra Bases. He says Manny's mostly been a pain in the ass to his teammates for years. I'm not swallowing that 100%. First, it's Schilling. Second, there needs to be a bit more class about saying goodbye to Manny. If Schilling's mouthing off is something the front office enoucraged, or if there is any more talk from them about how awful Manny was, I'm going to be pissed.
Just say, "He made his decision" and let it go. Please.
I think it was a pretty fair deal for all involved. Mostly I think this after watching the SOSH thread and seeing three different commenters each disparage one of the teams involved for not getting enough in return. If nobody did well, then they probably all got about what they deserved.
ReplyDeleteSad to see Manny go, but it was time. Hope Jason Bay can fulfill the promise this year and next, but his salary is very reasonable even if he flops. We won't miss Moss with Bay.... The only glaring negative is the lack of bullpen help, but I bet theo was a little gunshy after last year and we didn't have the leverage to get anyone thrown in on this deal.
That's the other thing. Around 4 PM we turned on the radio in the car and heard Manny was staying put and Bay was headed to Tampa.
ReplyDeleteWTF?????
If we had to deal Moss and/or Hansen to work this deal and keep Tampa from becoming the Jason Bay Rays, well that's business.
Somebody on SOSH mentioned this, but the 12.5 mil Boston's going to have from next year isn't all Boston's getting off the books - Schilling, Tek and Timlin all come off the books as well. Even factoring in extensions for guys like Youk and Pedey, there's still going to be a nice chunk of change (maybe around 18-20 mil?) for the FO to play with after the season.
ReplyDeleteI'm listening to LA radio right now, and the host asked Nick Cafarto why Boston didn't try to ride out one more year with Manny and then just let him go. Hmm...maybe because just letting Manny go wouldn't get you somebody like Jason Bay?
yours is pretty cool too
ReplyDeleteHa. Back at you.
this deal is as much about keeping Bay from the Rays.
I did not think about this aspect of it. Probably right.
zen, schilling doesn't need encouragement from the FO- I'm sure he said that on his own, I bet the "Manny being Manny" thing has bugged him for years and he finally felt like he could uncork because he isn't currently with the team and Manny essentially invited the negative publicity. Given Schill's reverence for the history and traditions of the game, I imagine him as just the sort of "purist" that can't stand Manny's antics.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think about the Rays thing. I guess there is some additional value from keeping him away from our division rivals.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, Wilbon says on PTI "Ken Griffey Jr. and his 600 homeruns will help the white sox."
I mean, Maybe Griffey improves the offense since they don't have to play Konerko, while harming the defense a pretty good deal. But I'm not sure how many of those 600 homeruns the White Sox are allowed to use.
So been looking at the numbers for '06, '07 and '08.
ReplyDeleteBay has more hits, triples, HR's, K's 204 more at bats. So, the percentages are in Mannys favor but the youth and upward (we hope) growth is in Bays favor.
As for Schilling, I think his main beef with Manny is what he feels is the bs he puts Francona through on a yearly basis.
Wow, all the lurkers came out of hiding on this one.
ReplyDeleteI am just sad. I have nothing more to say. I am, as most here know, not a Billy Bean kind of fan; I am an emotional kind of fan. I loved Manny. I will miss him. I think Papi will miss him. I think this all sucks all around.
Poor Coco. If he had openly complained as much as Manny he would've put the F.O. in a tight place. Moss is gone and Coco still here. I wonder how he feels about that.
ReplyDeleteBay doesn't even need to be a big impact at first. If we start winning again, Hurrah I say.
And I hope Tito doesn't plug Bay in at the four spot right away. Let Youk or Lowell play behind Ortiz until Bay is raking.
Upward growth? He's 29! He's in his prime now - he's not getting any better
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if I am glad to see Manny go or if I'm just glad this is over, but I am glad this is over.
ReplyDeleteI hope our team has confidence in winning w/out Manny, and continues to do so.
Wow.
ReplyDeleteIn total shock. I'll still love Manny. Rooting for the Dodgers now.
I hope this actually helps the SOX.
my eyes teared up a little when i saw this in a link
ReplyDeleteGiven Schill's reverence for the history and traditions of the game
ReplyDeleteHe's got reverence all right. For the sound of his own voice.
my eyes teared up a little when i saw this in a link
ReplyDeleteUh...I see what you mean.
So what was the point of this? Really, for Jason Fucking Bay? What was the point?
ReplyDeleteExactly.
I saw the comment about the lurkers coming out and I am one of them. I am going to have to go home and tell my 8yr old son about this. He wears his Manny shirt with so much joy. What do I tell him? I understand about the business and the pros and cons, and I know Jason Bay is great, etc. I'm just sad about it.
ReplyDeletenix, that pix (or one taken .03 seconds before or after) has been my desktop picture for a while. i was planning on changing it to an iceberg we saw in Newfoundland - i guess now is a good a time as any....
ReplyDeleteAnd I guess Oscar will be back for tomorrow's game.
Man, fuck Schilling. Talk about wastes of money.
ReplyDeleteEnough with the Canadian shit. I'm Canadian too (almost), but geez, who cares.
ReplyDeleteThat pic was my background for a while, too. It's my favorite.
ReplyDeletesure logic, problems, numbers, prospects, and value, sure. you can explain it all to me over and over again. and i'd prolly agree, but im pretty fucking crushed right now. 29 year old man fighting tears...
ReplyDeletemy eyes teared up a little when i saw this in a link
ReplyDeleteOuch.
Stupid fucking Red Sox.
A SoSHer posted this:
ReplyDelete"To top it off, the team no longer has to search for a LF next season. Moss and Hansen isn't going to land you a player of Bay's caliber."
Very true.
I think I am going to try to get a ticket to tomorrow night's game. Thick and thin, you know?
ReplyDeleteIsn't Dunn going to be a UFA?
ReplyDeleteI'm sad to see Manny go, but I really feel like there was no choice. It would've been better if it had never gotten to this point, but since it did, this was probably the best we could've done under the circumstances. I do agree with the SoSH posters saying that the worst thing about this deal is that it distracted us from making any other deals before the deadline, although I don't think things are all that dire. Hopefully we start to see the offense pick up with the distractions lessened.
ReplyDeleteI've seen a few people blaming Boras for this situation. Anyone understand that one? I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
I've seen a few people blaming Boras for this situation. Anyone understand that one? I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
ReplyDeleteIf there was a decent chance the Red Sox would pick up the 2009 option -- and with a relaxed and happy Manny, they might have -- Boras (as Manny's new agent) get $0. I think the only way Boras can get a commission from Manny is if he becomes a FA.
So...... there is a theory that says Boras had to get the Sox to not to pick up the option. BUT if Manny stayed in Boston and hit a ton, the Sox could have picked up the option anyway, screwing up Manny's/Boras's plans. So they needed to force a trade too.
Manny's change of attitude came right after a meeting with Boras. Who knows what was said?
I'm pretty sure he didn't advise Manny that acting like a child and forcing a trade was the best way to get paid next year.
ReplyDeleteThe theory (which I don't have any opinion on) is that the whole thing did get Manny out from under the team options and allow him to be a free agent next year.
It's hard to imagine a $20m option being onerous, but it wasn't the money. The options took decision-making power out of Manny's hands in terms of how long he would play.
SoSHer 5belongstoGeorge:
ReplyDelete"So if all the Sabermetricians are happy, and if all the "respect the game purists" are happy, and if all the parasitic reporters are happy, and if all the whispering players are happy, then it is time to play ball. As someone else said, now there are no excuses or distractions."
Fuckin' A right!
Bay is coming into a "shiny, happy, non-poisonous" clubhouse, right? That should help with the pressure.
Fernando, your son will be ok. Trades are part of baseball. He'll miss Manny, then he'll move on.
ReplyDeleteSoSHer 5belongstoGeorge:
ReplyDelete"So if all the Sabermetricians are happy, and if all the "respect the game purists" are happy, and if all the parasitic reporters are happy, and if all the whispering players are happy, then it is time to play ball. As someone else said, now there are no excuses or distractions."
Except why do I get the feeling that no one's really happy -- except maybe Pirates and Yankee fans?
Maybe I'm projecting.
Not to steal your thunder, RS. I'm eager to get back to baseball, too. But happy I ain't.
any word on the press conference?
ReplyDeleteis it true that the players voted for manny to be dealt 23-1 (ortiz being the 1).
ReplyDeletethey are talking about it at SoSH.
is it true that the players voted for manny to be dealt 23-1 (ortiz being the 1).
ReplyDeletethey are talking about it at SoSH.
SoxScout posted that a radio guy named Mike Lynch said the Red Sox players voted 24-0 to get rid of Manny. Lynch was apparently going on what SoxScout said was "a huge spiel about shitty team play, Manny being a cancer, ect, ect."
SoxScout thought Lynch was being sarcastic, but he said it three different times.
Would the team actually put it to a vote?
And who the F is Mike Lynch?
ha, mike lynch.
ReplyDeleteWe basicly paid all we did for Bay. Is that worth it? Guess time will tell on that. However, does anyone think keeping him was an options?
ReplyDeleteI'm taken a poll on my site to see how many Sox fans are happy or not about the trade.
I love to hear all the comments. Great thought on maybe he is a Yankee next yeat. Maybe he will be?
Okay, I see the updated post about it. 23-1.
ReplyDeleteDUMP PAPI - TEAM-UNITY-HATING MALCONTENT!!!!!!!
Would the team actually put it to a vote?
ReplyDeleteNo fucking way.
Why would the team ever be asked to vote on a trade? Why would management ever include players in a trade decision?
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like bullshit to me. Obviously I don't know, but it sounds awfully fishy.
yeah, im just wondering if it were true or not. i am skeptical as well. just thought it was a weird detail to come out, or reported.
ReplyDeletewell the yawkey way store is having a sale i hear...
My turn.
ReplyDeleteI'm very sorry to see Manny in anything other than a RS uni, but I had a feling it was going to happen next year anyway, so I'm glad we got Bay. I think he was probably the closest thing we could hope for in terms of replacing Manny's numbers.
The thing is, like Amy. I'm not an all-numbers guy. I loved the antics, the shit-eating grin, the what-the-hell-will-he-do-next atmosphere.
But that's gone, and best of luck to him in the future, (just not when playing us). Now I'm just glad as hell this is all behind us, and can we please get back to WINNING some damn baseball games.
I really hate that we're off tonight, I'm ready to move on to the next phase of Red Sox superiority.
And who knew we had this many lurkers listening in on our conversations? I feel kind of violated.. :)
BTW - in my humble opinion, this was simply Manny for Bay. Hansen was going nowhere, and Moss was just tradebait in the of-season anyway.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the 23-1 vote sounds like total B.S. I don't believe the team would actually take a vote.
ReplyDeleteDo you guys know that Manny is going to decline arbitration? That means the Sox are going to have to give them 2 picks as well. We got completely hosed
ReplyDeleteHOF hitter, 2 solid prospects, $7M cash and 2 draft picks for ".284 in the NL" Jason Bay?
Are you kidding me?
And who knew we had this many lurkers listening in on our conversations?
ReplyDeleteI knew. JoS has huge numbers of readers who don't comment.
if anyone has any info about when theo is going to out the joystick down and have a press conference, i'd love to know.
ReplyDeleteI think the emotions-vs-numbers thing is a bit backwards in this case. People who only look at numbers had no reason to want to get rid of Manny yet.
ReplyDeleteThe gripes against Manny were mostly based on emotion.
It's not like those of us who really loved him were holding on to an old has-been out of sentiment (CoughVaritekCough).
In this case the people who care about intangibles were clamouring to get rid of him.
HOF hitter, 2 solid prospects, $7M cash and 2 draft picks for ".284 in the NL" Jason Bay?
ReplyDeleteWTF?
Batting average?!?!?!?
So with $27.5 million coming off the books at the end of 2008 (manny's 20 + schill's $14 - bay's $7.5), what are our chances of landing both Sheets & Sabathia?
ReplyDeleteSP:
Beckett
Sabathia
Sheets
Matsuzaka
Lester
Bullpen:
Wakefield
Buchholz
Masterson
Delcarmen
Okajima
Papelbon
= DROOOOOL
Sorry, $26.5...me fail math that unpossible.
ReplyDeleteTorre:
ReplyDelete"You wish you had the DH. We didn't plan in advance how to move things around."
...
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles. I don't think it's fair to put the debate in those terms. I buy all the prospectus and hardball times books, I read baseball analysts (and this blog!), but I thought Manny needed to go.
ReplyDeleteBay only costs 5 million this year. We have him under contract next year for 7.5.
ReplyDeleteI have my theories about Boras enabling, if not encouraging, bad choices by the players he represents. Tavarez, for example.
ReplyDelete... where by "theories" I mean "rank speculation", of course.
On the lurkers thing: I've lurked for a long time, I even think I commented once long ago (maybe even twice?). I usually just sit back and appreciate.
ReplyDeleteBut this, man, this hurts. I needed to say something to someone. I needed to be with my people. I bet there's a lot of that out there.
Who bats behind Papi now? There is no protection for him. Ortiz/Manny was the most feared tandem in baseball.
ReplyDeleteWe could have worked it out with Manny somehow. It all just happened so fast
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles.
ReplyDeleteIt is not an either/or thing. It never has been and it never will be.
When it comes to cars, can you only enjoy driving fast or only enjoy tinkering with the engine? No, people enjoy both and no one bats an eye.
Or with books, do you have to care only about reading the book or can you also like hearing about the creative process? Of course not, it's silly to suggest otherwise.
I agree fully with you. My post was poorly worded. I was responding to "in this case the people who care about intangibles were clamouring to get rid of him," which I didn't think was fair.
ReplyDeletei could see tito putting bay at 4 or maybe or putting yook there and bay 5 to start.
ReplyDeletedrew, flo and bay will be in the 3-4-5 spots in some combo.
maybe bay 3 and flo 4?
sorry to keep harping on about this, but will a press conference be tomorrow, most likely?
ReplyDeleteyou think i got sources? i do not.
ReplyDeletekeep checking extra bases or mlb, i guess.
I needed to say something to someone. I needed to be with my people. I bet there's a lot of that out there.
ReplyDeleteOne of many reasons online communities are so great. Welcome out of lurkdom. Join us for a game thread some night.
Some people don't care about only numbers OR intangibles. I don't think it's fair to put the debate in those terms.
ReplyDeleteI agree re it's not either/or.
For many people, however, those are the terms of the debate. Manny's hair is too long, he's a space cadet, he's lazy, he's this, he's that, get rid of him.
You are not necessarily one of those people (I wouldn't know).
Amy's and Sosock's comments seemed to imply that fans thinking with their hearts wanted Manny to stay, while fans thinking with their heads (represented by numbers) wanted him to leave.
I don't think that's accurate.
He will be remembered fondly.
ReplyDelete>>>>>>>>>>
ReplyDeleteSeems to be a whole lot pain here. I get that. This is not a fun day, of course nor has it been fun wondering if Many would play or even run to first.
ReplyDeleteLet's throw this out there...
Would you have rather had Griffey instead of Bay?
Feel free to respond to my poll on my site.
Griffey? Why would anyone want Junior on their team now?
ReplyDeleteor even run to first
ReplyDeleteWhat bullshit. Watch every player run to first, every night. Note who sprints and who jogs. Then see if you have anything to criticize Manny about.
nor has it been fun wondering if Many would play or even run to first
ReplyDeletenor has it been fun wondering if you'll post a comment that doesn't suggest people click over to your site.
Griffey? Why would anyone want Junior on their team now?
ReplyDeleteGriffey? Fuck dat.
I want Willie Mays.
Have you seen his stats? WOW!!!
Many would play, but few are chosen.
ReplyDeleteOkay I hear ya on the run to first base. However, only one player in recent days has had their running time to first base a topic of discussion on ESPN's Baseball Tonight.
ReplyDeleteThey were talking about Manny. I think they said the average run was just of 4 secs and he was like 7 sec (again this number I am not sure of)
However, only one player in recent days has had their running time to first base a topic of discussion on ESPN's Baseball Tonight.
ReplyDeleteThat's my point.
Only one player got that treatment.
Now you look with your own eyes, take out your own stop watch, and see if that treatment was warranted. Or if it was special treatment for Manny.
Started posting some pics here: http://www.threadsox.com/index.php?topic=174.0
ReplyDeleteFeel free to add some favorites if ya want.
=(
I'm just sad.
Many would play, but few are chosen.
ReplyDeleteOh man, you gotta join a game thread! You'd fit right in.
I know you're upset, most Sox fans are even those of us who thought it was time for him to go.
ReplyDeleteI made the run to first comment aabout Manny because it's like he just did it on what some players think are the no brainers to first. It was more than that, don't think?
What about the outfield? Do you think he lacked the talent and skill needed to play it well all time or did he lack a little desire at times?
I'm just sayin'...
However, we are all grateful that helped changed the ending to the movie Fever Pitch!
and he was like 7 sec (again this number I am not sure of)
ReplyDelete5.2. But thanks for caring.
Shorey, I was completely opposed to dealing Manny. And I'm really upset. And the last thing I feel doing is discussing one of my favourite players with someone who "is just sayin" stuff that I find completely wrong, and a bit offensive.
ReplyDeleteSo I'm just sayin' see ya.
Did you mean me? Probably not. What is a game thread?
ReplyDeleteFUCK YOU! CAUSE HE JOGGED DOWN THE LINE IN A GAME THAT WAS A FUCKING BLOW OUT?!
ReplyDeletesorry, but really, fuck you.
Did you mean me?
ReplyDeleteI quoted the person I was responding to.
What is a game thread?
We watch games together, online, and chat as watch.
THANK YOU NIX!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteGammo shooting his mouth via video on the ESPN web site.
ReplyDelete"I can tell you one thing, the happiest man in America right now is Terry Francona"
Yikes.
Man, talk about your rough days today. It's almost a blessing that the Sox have the day off...the way they're playing, a loss tonight would be especially crushing.
ReplyDelete"nor has it been fun wondering if Many would play or even run to first"
ReplyDeleteredsock
Sorry if I offended your site is awesome. I meant no ill towards you. I am new to this blogging thing and yes I know it shows.
I have enojoyed the discusion. Again sorry if I offended
Mike Lowell might be the worst on the team when it comes to not bothering to haul ass down to first.
ReplyDeleteVaritek doesn't exactly bring smiles to my face either (when he actually hits the ball and has to run, that is).
Tito seriously cannot be happier than Manny (or, hell, even Bay) is right now. If he is, I'll eat both my Sox cap and my Yaz jersey.
ReplyDeleteNote to Joy Nation. "ShoreysStories" says this on his blog:
ReplyDelete"Right now I like Bucky Dent just a hair less than Manny."
This person likes the man who helped us win two World Series only slightly more than he likes Bucky Dent.
"I can tell you one thing, the happiest man in America right now is Terry Francona"
ReplyDeleteat this point i can't really believe a word gammons says. fuck him too while im at it.
Watching the Angels/Yankees game on FSN West, and the announcers are going on about the Legends Park area and how you can "feel the history there". I know what I said about the Yankees and how I'm trying not to put my disdain of them over any other AL team, but shit like that makes me vomit into my own mouth.
ReplyDeleteSorry, just wanted to get that out of my system.
I'm not offended. However, I am sick of people parroting one-sided media bullshit as gospel.
ReplyDeleteSingling out Manny for something EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HAS DONE (AND WILL DO) is total media bullshit.
...
(Note: Using comments to direct people to your own blog is not considered good etiquette. If someone is curious about you, they can click on your name and see the link to your blog. Thanks.)
Yeah, god knows there's no history at Fenway, built in 19fucking12.
ReplyDeleterays playing tonite?
ReplyDeleteJim Duquette is angling to be the new Steve Phillips, and was just saying that Jason Bay doesn't inspire "fear" like Manny.
ReplyDeleteThen have him wear a scary mask. Are we talking reputation or reality? If the offensive stats are that close, then any disparity in "fear" is imaginary and irrational. The "fear" that matters in this trade is management's fear, based on comments made by the player, circumstantial evidence and past conduct, that their clean-up hitter was a risk to quit on them mid-pennant race absent a commitment the team couldn't and wouldn't make. That's fear enough for me, and evidently, them.
I agree with Redsock's assessment of the trade 100%. The Sox didn't give up too much at all...they solved a problem with minimal disruption, and improved their options for next year. Hansen may well turn into a great relief ace, but the Sox couldn't wait for him.
Very glad this is an off day, too. We'll be back at full power tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteSo ...... how long until someone uses BAY WATCH in a headline?
Then have him wear a scary mask
ReplyDelete:>)
Wow. Because 20HR 68RBI and a .398OBP in 365AB is so god damn annoying.
ReplyDeleteIf ESPN's Baseball Tonight wasn't constantly telling us why we should hate Manny, we wouldn't have people like Shorey comparing him to Bucky.
Being hijacked by propaganda is one of the most dangerous things we can do. Eff the people who boo'd at Manny in the past week. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Won't happen again.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the chat. I'm from New England and I live in Missouri where they think Brett is KING (not that I a problem with him).
Plus, in my work day vey few talk about sports to me. Never, the Red Sox.
I don't see much history in a park that opened in 1976.
ReplyDeleteNo question: stopwatching Manny to first was dirty pool. The guy has bad hamstrings....he has a beter excuse for jogging out pops and grounders than most players. Piling on, that's all it was.
ReplyDeleteYeah Patrick!!
ReplyDeleteI don't see much history in a park that opened in 1976.
ReplyDeleteThat killed me.
Vlad just murderized a ball. 10-2 Angels.
im sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up. i think i have an idea what manny means about "peace".
ReplyDeletePettitte: 5.1-11-9-3-4, 110
ReplyDeleteSo I assume everyone liked Manny's Bret Favre sign? Essentially we were more concerned about the controversy, the likelihood of a trade, the effect on the team, etc., than Manny was, and its his livelihood and profession. I don't think the situation was funny, no matter where you come down on it. Manny thought it was funny. And there you have it: the charm and the detachment. To me, the detachment became more infuriating than charming. It's not hard to believe others came to the same conclusion without being brainwashed by propaganda.
ReplyDeleteFKR off.
ReplyDeleteim sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up. i think i have an idea what manny means about "peace".
ReplyDeletei did not grow up in boston, but have been following the team and media since 1976. amen.
Jack, I guess you will never get it. That humour and lightheartedness is much of what we love about him.
ReplyDeleteRemember all our old conversations about players who seem to enjoy the game - and life - and players who go through life with a furrowed brow and a scowl? Whatever everyone wrote there, same goes.
im sure manny wasnt perfect, but the media went out of its way to vilify him. i'm not saying he didn't deserve some of it, but they were licking their lips, drooling... rubbing their hands. talk about a microscope. i grew up in boston so i know how the sports media is, it's expected. but the way they treated manny is a bit above and beyond. and the sheep ate it up.
ReplyDeleteEyup. Well said.
So I assume everyone liked Manny's Bret Favre sign?
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I don't give a shit. (Btw, I saw only a jpg somewhere.)
Manny thought it was funny.
Maybe that's how he's dealing with it, knowing he'd like to stay in Boston for the rest of his career, learning the team did not share his desire, and then having what seemed like everyone in the country -- media and fans -- shit on him.
I can't say I wouldn't be depressed and probably say FUCK ALL YOU PEOPLE!! more than a few times.
I have not been the biggest Manny fan for some time. I admit in my heart I've been hard on him because thought he could do even more. That no matter how good he is he could've even been greater. that's just me.
ReplyDeleteBut the Favre sign is right up there with high-five to the fan...
Funny!
But what I do I know?
The Favre thing was great. A lot of analogies between the two situations, but you won't hear anyone saying Favre is a horrible teammate...
ReplyDeleteRe "inspiring fear" and wearing scary masks, I remember Jeff Brantley on BBTN saying how stuff doesn't matter when it comes to a closer - what really matters is his attitude. He's got to have an attitude that batters are afraid of.
ReplyDeleteI'll take the stuff over attitude any day, thankyouverymuch.
The same detachment that makes some fans so upset at the players is the same trait that makes some players good.
ReplyDeleteImagine if Jason Varitek was calm and detached when he came up to bat with the bases loaded.
Manny always seemed like the guy that didn't take shit all that seriously at times (remember his grill on eBay?), but still had a ceiling for shit that he could take before he started getting angry. It appears that he finally hit that ceiling this season, and things just got ugly to the point of no return. The Favre sign was in line with everything else in his career - high-fiving a fan mid-play, the mummy, and so on. Basically, every single thing Manny did that got publicity was reflected through your opinion of him. I loved Manny, so I thought they were funny. I'll admit to indulging him a lot, and why not? He isn't a bad guy.
ReplyDeleteOn another issue, I'm always amused reading Yankee blog game threads when they play the Angels. We get good and mad when they beat the Sox, but Yankees fans react to the Angels like they're a combination of God, Allah, and Thor.
Nothing will ever be as great as Manny's high-five! That was one of the most incredible baseball moments I have ever seen.
ReplyDeleteThe same detachment that makes some fans so upset at the players is the same trait that makes some players good.
ReplyDeleteManny has the perfect attitude/mindset for baseball.
Focused like a laser on the AB, but when it's done, it's gone. So if he K'd or GIDP, that never carries over to the next AB. So the pressure of trying to making up for past outs is not there.
And even if he hit a dong, that cannot help him in the next time up. Put it out of your mind.
Same deal with the drop and roll in the field and the laughter. The play is over -- it cannot be changed. Why not laugh at the idiotic play you made?
When it comes to hitting, Manny's mindset is absolutely perfect.
I've always thought Manny's attitude is perfect for baseball. The man plays a sport where you fail most of the time. Carrying your failure to your next AB can only hurt you. The more you can be in the moment, in the present, the better off you will be. (This is true in all sports, I think.) (And possibly in most things in life!)
ReplyDeleteManny strikes out, he moves on. He hits a home run, he moves on. He isn't dwelling, stressing, re-living, whining. It's over, he's moved on.
Many fans and much of the media foolishly believe that how much stress they see in a player is a reflection of how much they care. A person who seems lighthearted must not care. Not caring equals not trying, and they end up disliking someone for the very qualities that make him a great ballplayer.
Meanwhile we all know how diligently Manny prepares for games, how hard he works.
People who don't care about their jobs don't work hard to prepare for them.
Shorey, I was completely opposed to dealing Manny. And I'm really upset. And the last thing I feel doing is discussing one of my favourite players with someone who "is just sayin" stuff that I find completely wrong, and a bit offensive.
ReplyDeleteI understand how you feel. I like Manny, too. I love his hair, and I think he catches too much flak for his defence, etc. When things deteriorated so quickly and got so ugly so fast in the last couple of weeks, I was just distraught. I felt like, "how could things be coming to this. C'mon, everyone, calm down." But, then I realize there's probably been a lot of crap none of us know about brewing for years ... remember the Red Sox putting Manny on waivers a couple of years ago? A while ago, when it became obvious that bridges were being permanently burned, I just thought, man, they have to get the best deal possible ... and I think they probably did under the circumstances, though I do think it's weird that the Red Sox are the ones trading a future HOF'er ... and they're also giving up prospects, too. Anyway, the whole thing kind of reminds me of the Nomar circus. I felt distraught over that, too, but ultimately, it didn't break the team.
Geez, we're posting the same thing at the same time again!
ReplyDeleteThat was not planned!
ReplyDeleteManny thought it was funny.
ReplyDeletemaybe what he thought was funny was his taking the piss out of people that took his, shall we say "disposition" way too fucking seriously, and overly obssessed with every fucking action (GET THE STOPWATCH, MARTHA, MANNY'S RUNNING AGAIN!!!!) he made?
seemed pretty obvious to me.
i get it.
Jesus, l-girl and redsock more or less put up the same post (which, btw, I agree with). You'd think they know each other in some way...
ReplyDeleteBut, then I realize there's probably been a lot of crap none of us know about brewing for years ... remember the Red Sox putting Manny on waivers a couple of years ago?
ReplyDeleteThere may have been other shit -- Gammo is busting out stories he's been sitting on for 2 years! -- , but I think the waiver thing was more the FO thinking that $20M could be spent on a couple of players to match Manny's production.
Weirdly, the guy on the radio is now playing Elvis singing "Sweet Caroline".
ReplyDeleteHoly crap. 156 comments on an off-day!
ReplyDeleteWhat happened? Did Manny get traded or something?
Jesus, l-girl and redsock more or less put up the same post (which, btw, I agree with). You'd think they know each other in some way...
ReplyDeleteI swear we didn't know it! Even though we are sitting right next to each other, in our backyard.
Surrounded by citronella candles to ward off bugs.
Amy's and Sosock's comments seemed to imply that fans thinking with their hearts wanted Manny to stay, while fans thinking with their heads (represented by numbers) wanted him to leave.
ReplyDeleteThat's not what I meant at all. I simply meant that I don't care if Bay has equivalent numbers or even better numbers. For me, Manny was the kind of player I enjoyed having on MY team---based on his skills, his attitude, his personality. I respect numbers, but I don't think they are the only thing that matters. So yes, I agree---it isn't numbers v emotion, but a mix of both.
Little Musing, your blog is very interesting! Multi-faceted to say the least. Plus I see you're a NYer.
ReplyDeleteI will refrain from asking too many personal, off-topic questions.
Yet.
Amy, thanks, and I agree. :)
ReplyDeleteoooh, thanks, l-girl. [blush]
ReplyDeleteMy oh my how life can get in the way of things. My parents and I were on our way up to the Portland area to visit my grandmother who had come down from northern Maine... Got into a bad car accident about three miles from my house. Luckily we're all okay. Bruises, etc., mainly. Car will probably be written off.
ReplyDeleteI just had dinner with three Yankee fans. I told them discussing Manny was OFF the table. They complied.... I am still sad and mad.
ReplyDeleteSo, all this evening I'm thinking, Manny Who? I was following this trade stuff all day, and my oh my how things can turn on a dime.
ReplyDeleteOh, Ish, that's awful. But thanks for the perspective---good to remember that there are other things besides baseball. I am glad everyone is ok in your family.
ReplyDeleteOh my, ish, glad you're OK!
ReplyDeleteMy well-wishes to ish as well. I know firsthand that bad car accidents are nothing to sneeze at. Glad to hear everyone's okay and that the car can be written off. And yeah, those sorts of things do have a way of putting stuff into perspective.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I'm sore, but x-rays were negative on both my mother and me. We were t-boned by a pick-up truck at an intersection.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who has a Subaru Outback, be thankful you have it.
Since this is practically an off-night game thread, I will tell you that we are eating the most awesome banana bread known to humanity. I don't even like banana bread, but this stuff is amazing.
ReplyDeleteIt's banana-cranberry. We stopped at a farm stand/bakery today and they had all different types of b-bread. Allan loves it so I bought some.
And it is sooooo good.
That's terrible. I'm glad you're ok, Ish, and that you hadn't driven 45 minutes before you crashed.
ReplyDeleteOMG, I'm posting about banana bread and Ish was in an accident! Are you ok?? I will catch up.
ReplyDeleteWow, Ish, that sounds scary as hell.
ReplyDeleteish, glad to see (read) that yr safe and sound.
ReplyDeleteLMAO!
ReplyDeleteI haven't read most of this chat, but that's one of the quotes of my night right there.
Ish, glad you and everyone else is okay.
ReplyDeleteGammons is reporting that Manny ran you guys off the road. Are you able to confirm or deny that?
When we drive around, I notice zillions of Subaru Outbacks. They seem very popular in New England especially.
ReplyDeleteSo glad you are all ok.
Honestly, I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded about what's most important in life. I think we're all pretty clear on that.
I'm also glad to hear Amy's dinner companions were kind.
Wow, Ish, that sounds scary as hell.
ReplyDeleteIt was. A busy road was closed so traffic was diverted to another road, which ends at a very bad intersection. The irony is, they just installed traffic lights today. Temporary, I'm sure, for the traffic. We were all thinking FINALLY, they put a traffic light in!
And then, of course, light turns green, the two cars ahead of us go, and then we go, and get by someone who ran the red light.
Ish being ok > banana bread
ReplyDeleteGammo is busting out stories he's been sitting on for 2 years!
ReplyDeletewhat are these stories? are you an espn insider? i hater that i cant read whole articles...
Gammons is reporting that Manny ran you guys off the road. Are you able to confirm or deny that?
ReplyDeleteLet's just say I think even Manny would have stopped at the red light.
I hope Joe G isn't reading that. He will never get his license.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, L. We all have things that happen to us that help put life into perspective. Certainly don't want any of you feeling any differently about Manny and the trade. This must've been a pretty awesome discussion.
ReplyDeleteI've got another FSN channel on now to watch the D-Backs/Dodgers, and I just had a sudden thought hit me: I'm going to get to watch Vin Scully announce a Manny Ramirez at-bat. That's all sorts of crazy and (sorry to say it) kinda awesome.
ReplyDeleteI subscribed to this thread before I went to dinner, and now my email inbox is flooded!!
ReplyDeleteI thought of Joe Grav too!
ReplyDeleteAlthough, for the record, ish being okay > Vin Scully announcing Manny Ramirez.
ReplyDeleteI've got another FSN channel on now to watch the D-Backs/Dodgers, and I just had a sudden thought hit me: I'm going to get to watch Vin Scully announce a Manny Ramirez at-bat. That's all sorts of crazy and (sorry to say it) kinda awesome.
ReplyDeleteSo, does Vin Scully do all of his broadcasts solo?
Ish being ok > banana bread
ReplyDeleteYou're not eating this banana bread.
Ahh farm stands! I am so excited that I will be farming again when I go to Oregon. It's not work to me. It's more like going to a carnival.
ReplyDeleteI went to a farmers market today. The sweet corn has filled out and is full on in season. Melons won't be long now!
I wonder if Musing has any fun math lessons for us? Some sort of spiritual theories about the spacings of prime numbers?
I was watching the beginning of a Dodgers game on EI during our free preview recently. It was so weird seeing him do the game by himself. He sounded like he was calling the game on the radio, but it was on TV.
ReplyDeleteIsh, did the truck driver stop? Was he drunk?
ReplyDeleteI'm going to get to watch Vin Scully announce a Manny Ramirez at-bat. That's all sorts of crazy and (sorry to say it) kinda awesome.
ReplyDeleteAnything involving both Vin Scully and Manny Ramirez must be awesome. I love them both.
I have a soft spot for the Dodgers, for many reasons. Now I have one more.
Latest news is Bay will wear Schilling's number?
ReplyDeleteDo we care?
If we hadn't already looks like we better deal with his retirement.
You're not eating this banana bread.
ReplyDeleteDoes it have nuts in it?
There's a great farm stand here. Every day we go around 4:30 to get our afternoon snack (plus other stuff if we need it): a plum for me, a peach for Harv.
ReplyDeleteVin is the best. He is just The Best.
ReplyDeleteVin does indeed do all his games solo. Not sure if it's been that way since the 60s, but I wouldn't doubt it.
ReplyDeleteLest anybody thinks Vin can't bring it like when he called Koufax's perfect game, find yourself video of the 4-HR game in 2006. Forgive my crudity, but he calls the everloving shit out of that game.
Ish, did the truck driver stop? Was he drunk?
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell, he didn't slow down. Or, he didn't slow down enough to have much effect on the outcome.
As far as whether he was drunk, I can't speculate yet, but there was a police officer sitting outside his door.
I purposely bought a kind w/o nuts. Cranberries instead.
ReplyDeleteWe have no farm stands near us. We live in sprawl. But we were out today, beyond the sprawl.