June 13, 2008

G70: Reds 3, Red Sox 1

Red Sox - 000 100 000 - 1  5  0
Reds - 100 200 00x - 3 4 0
Masterson turned in another "quality start" (6.2-4-3-3-9, 98), but the Sox bats were silent.

Only two Boston runners touched second base, both in the fourth inning (Ellsbury doubled and two outs later, Manny and Lowell singled). Cincinnati's three pitchers did not issue a walk all night. Drew went 0-for-4 and did not get the ball out of the infield.

Tampa Bay beat Florida 7-3 to move 1.5 GB Boston. The Yankees beat Houston 2-1 and are, once again, a season-best two games over .500.

***

Justin Masterson (2.59, 169 ERA+) / Aaron Harang (4.31, 102 ERA+)

Fresh off a 7-2 homestand that boosted their MLB-best home record to 28-7, the Red Sox hit the road for some more interleague action in Ohio.

Boston leads Tampa Bay in the East by 2.5 games. The Red Sox's largest lead this season has been 3.5 games (May 5-8).

Despite the team's 31-8 record against the NL since the start of 2006, Terry Francona doesn't like the gimmicky mid-season annoyance (that's my description, not his!):
It's not set up fair. You set your team up to play American League baseball and you go and play National League baseball. ... You're asking guys to do things they're not used to doing. I've never quite understood the fairness.
It's the franchise's first trip to Cincinnati since Games 3-4-5 of the 1975 World Series. Boston swept the Reds in three games at Fenway in June 2005 (10-3, 7-0 and 6-1).

Last week, ESPN's Jerry Crasnick wrote a nice overview of the Reds. Cincinnati's BR page is here.

Manny's hamstring troubles may prevent him from playing left field. Sean Casey will start tonight in place of hometown boy Kevin Youkilis.

In Pawtucket, Clay Buchholz explains how he has dropped his arm angle to "not quite three-quarters" to regain consistent command of his fastball.

Tonight: Our new rivals (2.5 GB) host the Marlins, while our old rivals (7 GB) visit Houston.

The Yankees (34-33) were a season-best two games over .500 back on April 23 (12-10). Since then, there have been six occasions when the MFY were one game over .500 -- 12-11, 14-13, 17-16, 28-27, 32-31, 33-32 -- and could have matched that high-water mark, but they always lost the next game. Tonight is their 7th attempt.

344 comments:

1 – 200 of 344   Newer›   Newest»
Paluka said...

Those Francona comments are pretty stupid. Anyone really think interleague play is somehow "unfair"?

L-girl said...

Anyone really think interleague play is somehow "unfair"?

Yes. I do, and many others.

It's very simple. Instead of every team playing every other team an equal number of times, some teams are playing sub-500 teams while their division rivals are playing first-place teams.

It is unfair, one of many reasons to hate interleague play.

PS Just because you disagree with something, doesn't mean it's stupid.

L-girl said...

It's also not fair because AL pitchers never have to hit, where NL pitchers have a bit more experience in that.

It's not fair because AL teams often lose their best hitter.

Patrick said...

I hope at the end of this week, the reds and Phillies think it was unfair they had to play the WS champions.

All things aside, I'm glad to get to see the Red and Phillies in action.

L-girl said...

All things aside, I'm glad to get to see the Red and Phillies in action.

If you're curious, you can always see them play their own NL teams.

redsock said...

The leagues play by different rules. Different rules!

Interleague is nothing more than a moronic gimmick (a Selig trademark, that). It should have been shitcanned after its first year, if not aborted upon its first suggestion in the drawing room.

MLB says it boosts attendance and fans like it.

Bullshit. There is no evidence that attendance is higher because of interleague and in every single poll taken on the subject in the past 3-5 years, fans are adamant that they want it abolished.

Fuck you, Bud. You are a total failure.

And an asshat.

redsock said...

So what is the deal with game threads during the upcoming JoS hiatus?

Jere said...

"Those Francona comments are pretty stupid. Anyone really think interleague play is somehow "unfair"?"

I can't fucking believe you said that. I was just gonna comment on how happy I was to hear Tito say that in public, and how it's so amazing how most people have been fooled into liking interleague play. And the first person goes and calls his comments "stupid."

It's very simple, paluka, as L said, why it's unfair. You can't just up and play a bunch of games against teams who play by different rules. But apparently the casual fan likes seeing the different colored hats on the same field or whatever, so the "experiment" goes on....

In other news, Tim Russert died.

Stefan said...

I agree that interleague play is flawed because of the "some teams play more good teams, some bad" argument. But that's just a further extension of the current scheduling problem of imbalanced schedules.

It's not unfair because the teams play by slightly different rules. Is the World Series unfair?

ish said...

I'm not really as against interleague as you guys seem to be, but the downsides I see can be pretty huge: What if a pitcher gets injured while batting, because he's not used to it? And, two teams competing in the same division will be facing different caliber teams, most likely, in the NL. The Rays could be facing bad teams, while the Red Sox could be facing really good teams. Or vice versa.

I love seeing the different matchups, but that's about it. Seeing your team facing different pitchers, seeing different players (even if that's what ESPN is for...), etc. "Natural rivalries" are bullshit, but still interesting seeing two teams from the same city or the same state playing against one another. It really needs to be revised. I've mentioned that before. This current, unbalanced schedule isn't exactly a thing of beauty, either.

L-girl said...

It's not unfair because the teams play by slightly different rules. Is the World Series unfair?

Absolutely. A team plays by one set of rules all season, then in the most important games of all, the rules are changed. How could that possibly be considered fair?

Abolish the DH.

And if they won't abolish the DH (which obviously they will not), then everyone should adopt it. One game, one set of rules.

But either way, abolish the abomination that is interleague play!

ish said...

In other news, Tim Russert died.

I'm in an Apple Store in a mall in Peabody, MA... I pulled up cnn.com on an iPod touch and it said that. So sad. He was such a force in the news world, and I always liked watching him on tv. Even though that's as far as it goes, I felt a hit of shock from it. Can't even imagine.

ish said...

Would you like to see MLB have an AL and NL, both using the same rules, and never play each other until the World Series?

That's the thing I'm hung up on. I like that there's a difference between the two leagues, but you're right, L. The most important games of the season, and the rules are different either home or away.

The logic of using the DH no matter where you are during interleague/world series doesn't make much sense either because it would put a preference on what rules to use, and you'd think to yourself, okay, so they think the DH is the better system, so why doesn't everyone use it?

My opinion is if you abolish the DH, you should try to restructure the leagues too. But of course with that, you're messing with history. But I don't see why the Red Sox and Mets can't play the same amount of games as the Sox and Yankees do, when the Sox and Mets would be playing the same game with the same rules.

Zenslinger said...

I don't know if it's reflected in the overall attendance numbers, but I can imagine that it's nice for an average fan to be able to see the other league's team in their local ballpark once every so often. Say you're a very casual baseball fan who lived in New England as a kid, and now you're a software engineer living in Arizona who hasn't followed baseball in twenty years but thinks the kids should have the experience. The Red Sox coming to play the D-Backs might be the thing that gets you into a seat at the park, and enjoying it might bring you back.

This is probably part of Selig and others' thinking, but there is some merit to it. Here I have the option of going to Oakland, but it's further away and a really crappy facility. It's been a real event when the Sox and Yankees have come to San Francisco the last couple of years. I enjoyed watching the Yanks struggle against the Giants in a way I wouldn't have enjoyed going to see them play the A's.

I think a lot of the unfairness in terms of rules doesn't hold all that much water because the disadvantages apply to both teams. Visiting AL teams are robbed of their DH, but visiting NL teams don't necessarily have the kind of hitter to bring off the bench who can fulfill that role.

The difficulty of schedule arguement is a perfectly good one, however. You can't spread your interleague schedule out enough to make it even. I can see why people get up in arms about it.

A lot is said about the tedium of playing your divisional rivals so much. Do they play each other more than they did when there was no interleague play? Or it is just a proportional difference, i.e. you would play the other non-divisional teams in the same league more before?

The question is whether the novelty is worth the scheduling woes and disparities. I can see both sides, myself. But I am not sure why it's considered such a bloody, evil crime against nature by some. I guess it becomes a lot more irksome if you look at it as a committed fan who wants the best chance for your team to win, and less so when you look at the big picture of the game in general.

One change I'd be in favor of is shaving a week off the season (and perhaps reducing the number of times division teams play each other from 19 to 18). The playoffs are going too far into the Fall now. Is there something magical about the number 162? I think 156 games would fulfill the need for a grueling season. Although -- shit, it would throw a wrench into comparing statistical records. All right, forget that idea.

redsock said...

My opinion is if you abolish the DH, you should try to restructure the leagues too. But of course with that, you're messing with history.

History has already been well messed with.

I'm pretty sure I support radical realignment, mainly to get rid of the odious wild card. And since interleague, there are not 2 different leagues anymore. And there has not been an AL president or NL president for a long time.

A division with Boston and both New York teams would be a lot of fun.

No one would go for 4 divisions of 7-8 teams each, although the AL and NL had 8 teams in one big division for decades. If you shortened the season and added two teams, you could have 8 divisions of 4 teams, with 3 rounds of of playoffs.

redsock said...

The Red Sox coming to play the D-Backs might be the thing that gets you into a seat at the park, and enjoying it might bring you back.

I think the availability of the EI package cancels this out. You can now watch all 162 Red Sox games from anywhere in North America.

They went from 154 games to 162 -- then can change it again.

redsock said...

Cafardo at 3:03 PM:
"Sheets of rain and thunder and lightning are pounding the tarp here at the Great American Ballpark. There's rain in the area the rest of the night so we'll see how this goes ..."

Ellsbury, CF
Pedroia, 2B
Drew, RF
Ramirez, LF
Lowell, 3B
Casey, 1B
Lugo, SS
Cash, C
Masterson, P

Bruce, CF
Janish, SS
Griffey, RF
Phillips, 2B
Dunn, LF
Encarnacion, 3B
Votto, 1B
Ross, C
Harang, P

L-girl said...

Would you like to see MLB have an AL and NL, both using the same rules, and never play each other until the World Series?

YES.

redsock said...

Looking at the Reds' stats, I like how even though Dunn is batting only .229, because of his high OBP and SLG, his OPS+ is easily higher than Hairston's, who is hitting .336.

redsock said...

SoSHer BoSoxLady:
"We're four blocks from GABP and it's pouring. Severe thunderstorm watch until 9:00."

L-girl said...

I don't know if it's reflected in the overall attendance numbers, but I can imagine that it's nice for an average fan to be able to see the other league's team in their local ballpark once every so often.

Restructuring the whole schedule and changing the rules of play for the casual fan, makes no sense. (And that's assuming you're right, that the casual fan does indeed like IL play, which we don't know.) Baseball is having no problem attracting fans. Attendance is higher than ever. You don't have to change the sport to attract someone who is going to buy, what, 2 tickets a year?

I think a lot of the unfairness in terms of rules doesn't hold all that much water because the disadvantages apply to both teams.

If there are disadvantages to both leagues, the solution is to take away the disadvantages.

I say this all the time, but to me the worst part of IL + unbalanced/divisional schedule is that we hardly see old stalwart AL rivals b/c we're too busy playing the friggin Phillies or whoever. I miss the AL Central.

I happen to like unbalanced/divisional play, but that's just a personal preference, I don't think it's necessary for the game or for the playoffs to be meaningful. If it took getting rid of both to get rid of IL play, then good, get rid of both.

But having both IL play and the unbalanced/divisional schedule is ridiculous.

Also, I think shortening the season by a week to make up for how long the playoffs are now would be good. Why not.

L-girl said...

I would also love to see radical realignment! That would be exciting.

Gareth Simpson said...

Hey guys and girls, how's everyone doing?

L-girl said...

Hi Gareth! Glad you came back. A bunch of people replied to you in last night's thread, but we weren't sure if you saw it or not. We are very chatty during gamethreads!

Gareth Simpson said...

Hi Laura, im sorry, i wasn't quite sure how this works. Do you people just meet here during a sox game and follow it together, that rocks. Sorry if i seemed a little rude.

Gareth Simpson said...

Hi laura, sorry if it seemd a little rude last night, I wasn't quite sure how this site works. Do you meet here during a sox game and follow it together? If so, thats pretty cool. Again sorry if i seemed a little rude.

L-girl said...

Gareth, you were totally not rude, not at all! If anything we were afraid we scared you off with stupid inside jokes.

To answer your question, yes, shortly before game time, Allan (Redsock) (blog owner), takes off moderation and everyone watches the game together.

Tons of off-topic talk, plus intelligent commentary like "SWEATY DONG!!!" (Yook home run), "ON FIRE!!!" (Drew does anything) and such.

Enjoy!

L-girl said...

During non-game times, comments are generally on-topic.

Also, Allan and I are going away for 2 weeks so the gamethread is going to be somewhere else while we're gone.

Any word on where, folks?

Gareth Simpson said...

HaHa, you didn't scare me at all, im sure i will become familiar with the American humor. Unfortunately coming from Ireland, i don't get to see every sox game. Im trying to pick it up on myp3p.eu. I have to admit, sweaty dong is a new one, never heard that before.

redsock said...

You might also want to check out the Glossary link under "Important Stuff" so when someone mentions:

CI
FY
HGH
MBM
GDGD
SASAHE
Flo
Fat Billy
brak brak
Snuffer
Passedballa!
Chocolate Rain
BuffyVision
Shemp
Old Yeller
&
the Toilet

you'll know what's going on!

God, look at that (partial) list. We're insane!

Amy said...

Here's a question that may mean nothing to anyone but me. I first discovered JOS when I set up my iGoogle page, and it was one of the options I could load on my page. Now, however, it no longer seems to be updating. (It is still on a game from two days ago.)

Any clues as to why? Did you quit some Google association?

redsock said...

I have not changed any setting.

Amy said...

Off to dinner. Catch you all later at the game!

Gareth Simpson said...

Bye Amy

nick said...

following up on completely non-baseball issues.

1) Tim Russert's death surprised me. I'm no fan of his--politically or media-ly--but very sad news for his family.

2) the Anti-Capitalist Cowbell Collective was announced on the air as having the highest donation for the Buck Dharma (of Blue Oyster Cult) signed cowbell at our local community radio station's fund drive. Still two days to go in the drive, but they're now allowing cumulative donations, so it's more auctiony. We're going to do it! What we're going to do with it is another question entirely.

redsock said...

Re Russert: It was indeed a surprise, but people with families die every day. ... And considering his influence, Russert deserves a decent amount of blame for the piss-poor state of the US media.

Gareth Simpson said...

Tim Russert's death sure as shocked and saddened alot of people. I wasn't very familiar with him, though i do recall watching meet the press when i lived in Boston. He had just returned from Italy, were he was celebrating his son's recent graduation from Boston college. Sympathy goes out to his wife Maureen and son Luke.

nick said...

I totally agree on both counts, Allan.

It's unfortunate that we are more able to empathize with individual deaths than the mass anonymous (to us) that we (speaking as part of the collective responsibility for U.S. foreign and domestic policies) are responsible for every day.

phil said...

I was going to suggest Russert could've moderated the site during the hiatus, but I thought better of it. Now I see folks in here are actually bummed about his death.

Assholity averted!

redsock said...

So ... if people want game threads to stay here from June 17-July 1 (or 2) -- as opposed to ThreadSox or Jere's blog or somewhere else or nowhere -- do any of the regulars want to sign up to moderate comments?

I will not feel bad if no one wants to. It's not a lot of work, but it does take a bit away from watching and commenting like you do now.

Email me if you're up for it.

redsock said...

hey - is the game starting on time?

nick said...

alright, just in time for game time, I've got to go for a while. I should be able to catch up for the last few innings.

rock on!

L-girl said...

Amy, I also use iGoogle, and occasionally I have to re-enter a feed to get it to work again. I have no idea why, but it should just re-start.

L-girl said...

Re Tim Russert, I'm sure I'll sound like a total asshole here, but I cannot for the life of me understand what all the fuss is about. People die every day. Did this man actually mean something to everyone, was everyone actually emotionally attached to Tim Russert that they are so blown away by a man's sudden heart attack?

I simply cannot understand it. If you knew someone personally, of course. If you were very attached to someone's work, such as an artist or musician who meant a lot to you, of course.

But a news commenter? It's sad for his family and friends, but many families lost people today, and the day before, and tomorrow, and the day after that.

I simply do not get it.

L-girl said...

Now that everyone knows what an insensitive bitch I am, I will be late to tonight's gamethread because I will be folding laundry (while watching the game, of course).

redsock said...

L: I agree with you.

redsock said...

FSN on mlbtv. :<(

phil said...

Don't you understand? HE WAS ON THE TEEVEE. That's like family.

Or something.

redsock said...

he was a right-wing schill who died at an early age and will not be missed. that's about it.

phil said...

Hanley Ramirez triple; Jeremy Herrida double.

FLA 1 - FKR 0.

Cantu single.

Coaching visit to mound.

redsock said...

CBSSportsline: "Moving faster than expected and coming after a rash of blown calls, baseball wants to put replay into effect by August for home run disputes in hopes of fine-tuning the system by the playoffs."

phil said...

Jacobs sac. FLA 2 - FKR 0.

phil said...

Fucking Bruce.

ish said...

Has there been a Bat Masterson reference yet tonight? There will be when we get to the bottom of the Red Sox order!

redsock said...

you've heard of drummer jack bruce. well, bruce jacked that ball right outta here. (/mccarver)

Zenslinger said...

FSN feed is mentioning the "Countdown to Cooperstown" for Junior while they are apparently shopping him.

redsock said...

CBSSportsline says Manny homered.

oy.

redsock said...

And they have the score as 1-1.

redsock said...

i wonder when cbs will change the manny dong to a fly out.

redsock said...

Check it out here.

redsock said...

hey - maybe bruce didn't homer either!

phil said...

Hinske double. 2-2.

redsock said...

cbs probably has hinske getting the save.

Joe Grav said...

What's the score gang?

phil said...

CBS fixed it.

redsock said...

CBS back to normal. I guess the guy at the park finally discovered that Ramirez did NOT homer last inning.

Patrick said...

Master of puppets Im pulling your strings
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams
Blinded by me, you cant see a thing
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
Master
Master
Just call my name, `cause Ill hear you scream
Master
Master

KKKKK

ish said...

I don't know what it was about Tim Russert that made feel so shocked and saddened, moreso than usual with people on TV, whether I watch them a lot or not. Usually I say ah that's too bad, then move on. I dono. I liked him.

So, that is that for that.

redsock said...

i heard russert was going to play short for us after the ASG. now we're stuck with lugo.

Joe Grav said...

Russert is personal to me, tangentially... I took a class with his son, who is a great, funny guy. Russert was a great friend of Boston College, always attending sporting events, academic events, giving speeches, etc.

I like watching Meet the Press whenever I'm awake on time (ha).

Say what you will about the media, Russert was always hard working, honest, and non-partisan, which is more than you can say for 99% of talking heads.

He was also a big sports guy, so I kind of related to him as a big-time name who had a passion for politics and for sports, same as Olbermann.

I'll miss seeing him around campus during big events.

redsock said...

FSN on-screen fact: Red Sox have gone down 1-2-3 only 152 out of 600 innings this year (fewest times in MLB)

ish said...

Bat Masterson!

redsock said...

honest, and non-partisan

Ummm, no.

Patrick said...

Well of course, after two outs we score three times.

Joe Grav said...

It definitely did strike me more than most shock deaths of public figures. It's just weird for someone like that to die, you know?

I actually did a research paper freshman year on the ways in which people react to 'celebrity' deaths. It's a very personal thing.

L-girl said...

Say what you will about the media, Russert was always hard working, honest, and non-partisan

LOL!! Joe, that's hilarious. What a funny joke.

I understand you know his son, and it's perfectly understandable to be moved when someone you know loses their father. But if you're going to say Russert was honest and non-partisan, you're going to make a lot of people laugh very hard.

redsock said...

It's just weird for someone like that to die, you know?

It's true. It seems like those a-holes usually stick around forever.

L-girl said...

It's just weird for someone like that to die, you know?

No. I do not know.

I don't even know what "someone like that" means in this case. A man on TV? A man who met famous politicians? A liar?

ish said...

But if you're going to say Russert was honest and non-partisan, you're going to make a lot of people laugh very hard.

Maybe not a lot of people.

phil said...

Suck on that, Mr. 1.148 OPS.

Joe Grav said...

A lot of people like, what, you, Allan, and 2.2% of the public? He didn't give anyone a free pass, D or R. I know you abstain from American media, but I watched Meet the Press and I can tell you that that's the case.

The funny thing is, there's a bunch of republicans out there somewhere saying the same thing as you about that 'goddamn liberal.'

L-girl said...

It seems like those a-holes usually stick around forever.

HA! Good one.

Gotta go fold more laundry, I'll come back to argue with my friend Joe later. ;)

Patrick said...

Six strikeouts? WTF!

redsock said...

Not safe for those under 18:

Russert in action.

phil said...

If you're pissing off people on the right and pissing off people on the left, you haven't excluded the possibility that you're just an asshole.

Joe Grav said...

Yes, L. A man on TV who was named one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, who was extremely famous, and who seemed to be in very good health. It's not every day that one of the '100 most influential people in the world' dies.

Joe Grav said...

If you're pissing off people on the right and pissing off people on the left, you haven't excluded the possibility that you're just an asshole.

Or a journalist.

Patrick said...

NASTYSON!

phil said...

FKRs up 3-2, with more to come.

Joe Grav said...

As for the game, I have a video stream up that's about 5 minutes behind, so I'm seeing all these comments, then watching it happen much later. Ha. I'm only gonna be around here for a lil bit anyway.

Patrick said...

I will feel a lot better when (IF!) we put some runs on the board.

phil said...

This better not be one of those Wakefield games where we give up one homerun, strike out every other batter, but fail to score any runs ourselves and lose.

redsock said...

A lot of people like, what, you, Allan, and 2.2% of the public? He didn't give anyone a free pass, D or R.

Who was it that said you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts?

Check out the MM link I provided.

phil said...

Journalists inform. Or at least they used to.

Patrick said...

HIP HIP HURRAY!

redsock said...

Ellsbury showing off his Orioleness!

phil said...

That was Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Joe Grav said...

I did. I'll grant that I didn't have time to read every single link on that page, although I can assure you that there are people out there who 'fact check' Media Matters, too.

My opinion comes from actually watching him and paying attention to the news.

ish said...

I like our chances here for tying the game.

On fire with Lyndon on second.

redsock said...

nice play (and turn and throw) on that popup.

Joe Grav said...

Much like Bill O'Reilly considering himself a 'moderate,' and thinking that the 'radical left' is a big problem in America while those on the right really aren't that far out there, if you come from a certain deeply entrenched perspective, you're going to think of everyone as being wrong.

Russert was neither Cronkite nor Murrow, but he was easily one of the best of my generation.

Patrick said...

I just realized I haven't been here to celebrate any of the recent J.D.Dongs that I always called for.

I shouldn't call for one now.

ish said...

Oi. 7.0 magnitude earthquake strikes northern Japan.

redsock said...

My opinion comes from actually watching him and paying attention to the news.

That's like the Yankee fans who say Jeter is a great shortstop because they "actually watch him" every day.

You cannot remember everything you ever heard -- that why people/websites collect quotes (and stats).

Joe Grav said...

Natural disasters everywhere lately. Jeebus.

ish said...

nice play (and turn and throw) on that popup.

I liked that play too.

Joe Grav said...

If I collected everything you ever said or wrote, I could probably come up with a really long list of incorrect statements. Nothing personal, just a not-so-bold prediction.

phil said...

FKR 4 - FLA 2.

redsock said...

Oi. 7.0 magnitude earthquake strikes northern Japan.

Did anyone famous die?

phil said...

So how about them Celtics.

Joe Grav said...

Did anyone famous die?

As if we wouldn't all be terribly upset if one of the Red Sox died. I'm assuming you would take that no harder than the death of a random middle-aged person in Great Britain?

Patrick said...

HURRAY!

ish said...

Being being Being!

phil said...

Can we buy a run here? Is Manny selling?

HE IS.

Joe Grav said...

Did manny hit a homer?

ish said...

Did anyone famous die?

Maybe Bobby Valentine did.

ish said...

Rain starts... big rains on the way.

L-girl said...

Ah, finally settling in w/ the thread, just in time for Manny's RBI. (And for rain!)

The Fox idiots are out tonight.

Hey, nice to see the Mayor get a big standing O from his old fans. Like, an hour ago.

ish said...

Did manny hit a homer?

LONG single to right that kinda died at the base of the wall. Ellsbury scored.

redsock said...

If I collected everything you ever said or wrote, I could probably come up with a really long list of incorrect statements

I mean bias more than incorrect. And yes, you'd see I have biases.

You'd see I like facts to back things up and I really hate the Yankees and Roger Clemens.

So when I died and someone said "He treated Clemens with the same respect as Pedro", you'd know that person was full of shit.

ish said...

And it's a Half Doctor Special.

Joe Grav said...

Excellent.

There's a dog running around on the field catching frisbees right now. Impressive stuff. He sprinted LBJ style from center to the foul pole in right and made a leaping grab.

Gareth Simpson said...

Are all Americans as cold blooded as you guys?

ish said...

So when I died and someone said "He treated Clemens with the same respect as Pedro", you'd know that person was full of shit.

He loved the United States, and he loved George W. Bush. He whined about moving to Canada.

Joe Grav said...

So you're taking that Media Matters page to mean that Russert was horribly biased? Remember when L said something about a lot of people laughing? This would be one of those times.

phil said...

I remember Allan well. He loved his children and loved America.

Patrick said...

ESPN's 'gamecast' has a couple more features today. Averages in the hit zones for betters, and their spray charts.

Pretty cool.

ish said...

There's a dog running around on the field catching frisbees right now. Impressive stuff. He sprinted LBJ style from center to the foul pole in right and made a leaping grab.

Can he play shortstop?

Joe Grav said...

Are all Americans as cold blooded as you guys?

No.

redsock said...

As if we wouldn't all be terribly upset if one of the Red Sox died.

If you cheered for Russert the way we cheer for the Red Sox, then I apologize.

L-girl said...

Russert was neither Cronkite nor Murrow, but he was easily one of the best of my generation.

Joe, you are too intelligent to have such ridiculously low standards. It's beneath you.

To be clear, I am not saying I would not be upset if someone famous who meant a lot to me did. When Joni Mitchell dies, a part of myself will go with her. I feel the same way about Howard Zinn, who is elderly. Those people mean something to me personally.

And if Tim Russert meant something to you personally, then of course you will grieve.

But the massive outpouring of emotion over his death does not, IMO, represent that.

Patrick said...

I've got my earmuffs on today. Just enjoying the game.

Joe Grav said...

I didn't 'cheer for' him, but I respected him, enjoyed watching him (and NBC news in general - I used to be a CNN devotee, but now I'm all about MSNBC), and considered him part of my school's community.

phil said...

My fantasy press team took a real hit. And to think I'd finally recovered from losing Jennings to the big DL in the sky in '05.

Joe Grav said...


But the massive outpouring of emotion over his death does not, IMO, represent that.


What DOES it represent then? I want to know? Why are so many people so affected, if he didn't mean anything to people?

phil said...

If Keith Olbermann keels over tomorrow, I'll be sad.

L-girl said...

Does being honest make one "cold blooded"? Oh yeah, when someone dies you're supposed to lie act like they were a hero, no matter what.

Joe Grav said...

If Olbermann died, I would probably break down. I love that guy. Today, it was more like a punch in the stomach.

redsock said...

Fine, Joe.

Give me a dozen well-sourced examples of Russert letting misstatements by Dems pass unnoticed while hammering Repubs for the same thing. Or of him giving head-shaking bias towards the left.

The guy was around for awhile. A dozen examples should not be too hard to find. You can start with transcripts of him asking hard questions about Bush's and Cheney's claims on WMDs.

Joe Grav said...

No, L, but it doesn't mean you should act like it's a great travesty that the media and the public is making a big deal out of it, since they apparently cared about him.

phil said...

Maybe they bought into the myth? There's always a massive outpouring of public emotion whenever a longtime celebrity dies.

ish said...

My fantasy press team took a real hit. And to think I'd finally recovered from losing Jennings to the big DL in the sky in '05.

Please tell me you didn't draft Tucker Carlson.

Joe Grav said...

You know what, redsock? Normally, I would tell you to piss off with a b.s. challenge like that, but I'm actually up for it. I'm at the ballpark right now, but starting at around midnight tonight when I get home, I'll get on it.

I doubt I'll find examples of 'bias to the left,' but I wouldn't consider that to be a good thing, anyway.

Patrick said...

My gosh, these derned sluggers.

phil said...

Shit.

ish said...

Today, it was more like a punch in the stomach.

I'll agree with you there. I did feel similar.

phil said...

Please tell me you didn't draft Tucker Carlson.

As a fluffer. Why?

Patrick said...

Jacoby shoulda caught that

Joe Grav said...

If I get it done, can I get a signed copy of 1918?

redsock said...

Celebrities are American royalty.

Of course the media is making a big deal about Russert. HE WAS ONE OF THEM!!!! If he was a poet, other poets would make a fuss, but the general media might not acre so much.

And since we get news from the media, Russert's death is going to be put in front of us a lot, making it seem out of proporation to other news around the world.

I'm done now. ... Go get those examples!

L-girl said...

Because their lives are so empty of real meaning, filled up with vapid consumer culture and celebrity worship, that they confuse sentimentality over the death of a famous person with actual emotion over the death of someone they really knew.

Again, I emphasize that if Russert and his work meant something to you personally, then that's totally different.

phil said...

Fucking shitfuck.

phil said...

MFYs up 1-0.

Joe Grav said...

Celebrities are American royalty.

Oh, right. In Canada and Britain, nobody cares about celebrities.

redsock said...

If I get it done, can I get a signed copy of 1918?

Sure.

phil said...

Canada and Britain have royal royalty.

redsock said...

Again:

...a dozen well-sourced examples of Russert letting misstatements by Dems pass unnoticed while hammering Repubs for the same thing. Or of him giving head-shaking bias towards the left.

I expect to look like a fucking Bobblehead at these examples.

Joe Grav said...

Because their lives are so empty of real meaning, filled up with vapid consumer culture and celebrity worship, that they confuse sentimentality over the death of a famous person with actual emotion over the death of someone they really knew.

I was with you for about half of that. To me, when a public figure dies who I admire, it's a way to stop and reflect on life and things that are important to me in a way that I just can't do for every single tragic event that happens in the world. If I did, I'd spend 99.999% of every day terribly sad, because of all the hatred and sadness in the world.

But it's good and it's healthy to grieve and be sad sometimes.

Patrick said...

whew, time to put up some more RUNS!

redsock said...

And who said anything about anywhere else? I was talking only about the US -- I was not comparing it to anywhere. Nice attempt at misdirection, though.

Joe Grav said...

Redsock, I don't like the way you phrased that 'challenge.' I'm gonna work with you on re-wording it to something a little bit fairer. I'll email you later.

ish said...

And since we get news from the media, Russert's death is going to be put in front of us a lot, making it seem out of proporation to other news around the world.

They're planning pretty much round-the-clock coverage on MSNBC which I don't exactly agree with. It's kinda like if one of the Red Sox died, they'd cancel a game or two and just sit at the ballpark and talk about him the whole time.

L-girl said...

No, L, but it doesn't mean you should act like it's a great travesty that the media and the public is making a big deal out of it, since they apparently cared about him.

The media is mourning a colleague. They should do exactly that.

The public? It IS a travesty the way the public fawns on celebrities. A fucking travesty.

Maybe they bought into the myth? There's always a massive outpouring of public emotion whenever a longtime celebrity dies.

Right. And I find it bizarre each and every time.

ish said...

.I was with you for about half of that. To me, when a public figure dies who I admire, it's a way to stop and reflect on life and things that are important to me in a way that I just can't do for every single tragic event that happens in the world. If I did, I'd spend 99.999% of every day terribly sad, because of all the hatred and sadness in the world.

But it's good and it's healthy to grieve and be sad sometimes



Agreed. And one of the things I thought of was his son, which made me think of my father.

Patrick said...

Lugo is over due to dong.

Joe Grav said...

Well, to me, when someone says, "European soccer fans are so insane," I take that to mean in comparison to soccer fans elsewhere. When people say "Japanese workers are so disciplined," I assume them to mean in comparison to workers elsewhere. When people say "Canadians are so obsessed with hockey," I assume that to mean, relative to the rest of the world.

Maybe I'm wrong in assuming that, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

Joe Grav said...

Right. And I find it bizarre each and every time.

Until it's someone you admire, and then you don't find it so bizarre. You even said it yourself.

johngoldfine said...

Coming in late on Tim Russert--

Most of us say, like Dr. Johnson, that no one's dinner in London is disturbed by an earthquake in Lisbon.

L-girl said...

A lot of people like, what, you, Allan, and 2.2% of the public?

What's this mean, Joe? That if you're in the minority, you're automatically wrong?

You think being on the side of 98% of the US public makes something true?

You ought to know better than that, but your rhetoric tonight is making me doubt it.

redsock said...

Joe:

You said Russert "didn't give anyone a free pass, D or R".

I disagreed and provided many sourced examples of his R-bias.

You implied that there was just as much evidence of a D-bias.

I asked for examples.

***

Why is that a bullshit challenge?

Joe Grav said...

Do I think global culture in general is overly obsessed with celebrities as opposed to important issues? Abso-freakin'-lutely. But that's kind of irrelevant to this discussion. It seems to me like this has more to do with personal opinion of the person involved than general cultural principles.

And the irony is, Russert was a newsman, not a movie star or a musician, and despite what Redsock, L, and a few other people think, he was damn good at it - he actually was one of the people putting attention on issues.

Joe Grav said...


You implied that there was just as much evidence of a D-bias.


No. I implied that there are probably people out there who think (INCORRECTLY) that he had a D-bias.

Joe Grav said...


What's this mean, Joe? That if you're in the minority, you're automatically wrong?


No, it doesn't. Never said that. You said 'a lot of people would laugh' at my statement that Russert was a hard working journalist, and I said, actually, I really doubt that to be true, depending on what you consider to be 'a lot of people.'

redsock said...

You said Russert "didn't give anyone a free pass, D or R".

If he "didn't give anyone a free pass", then all of those examples at that link should be able to be easily debunked.

L-girl said...

Until it's someone you admire, and then you don't find it so bizarre. You even said it yourself.

YES. And I ALSO said if he meant something personally to you, then this doesn't apply to you.

But you're telling me that all the celebrities that the public goes nuts over, each one of them, means something to them personally? Any famous person, any person on TV, they all have touched the hearts and minds of everyone so much? I' talking about people who have affected my life and entire view of the world. If Tim Russert is that to you, then you have every reason to mourn.

But isn't it more likely that the public at large is just reacting to fame and celebrity and it has nothing to do with anything else but their own empty lives?

I hear my co-workers talk about every famous movie actor as if they know them. Whoever is the flavour of the month, they know and love (or hate, whichever is appropriate) them.

You don't see this phenomenon?

redsock said...

Don't bother emailing.
Believe whatever you want to believe.

Joe Grav said...

I could probably go through three transcripts of Meet the Press and find assloads of tough questions to Republicans, Democrats, Green Party members (Greenies?), and Libertarians.

phil said...

I've got a better idea for a challenge, Allan. We'll get a case of beer and a dozen yards of tulle and put on a fashion show!

Amy said...

My two cents on Russert: what scared me most is that he was only a few years older than I am. PErhaps that is a bit self-centered, but it scared the shit out of me.

Enjoy life. It isn't long,

Be back later.

Joe Grav said...


But isn't it more likely that the public at large is just reacting to fame and celebrity and it has nothing to do with anything else but their own empty lives?


It's possible, although I honestly think that most people aren't reacting on a very personal, mournful level to this. I think a lot of people are saying, "Wow! someone who is extremely influential and famous died. This is not something you see every day." That's a different thing all together.

I personally am quite saddened.

Joe Grav said...

My two cents on Russert: what scared me most is that he was only a few years older than I am. PErhaps that is a bit self-centered, but it scared the shit out of me.


It's little connections like that that people reflect on when a prominent public figure dies. You can't spend your whole entire life being shocked and saddened when someone your age dies, but it's healthy to think about that from time to time.

phil said...

Just a guess, but he probably didn't have the best diet and exercise regimen.

phil said...

FKR 4 - FLA 3. Hanley strands one at second to end the inning.

Joe Grav said...

Probably not.

redsock said...

I think a lot of people are saying, "Wow! someone who is extremely influential and famous died. This is not something you see every day."

That is probably true, though I think I have a different reason for believing it than you do.

ish said...

No, it doesn't. Never said that. You said 'a lot of people would laugh' at my statement that Russert was a hard working journalist, and I said, actually, I really doubt that to be true, depending on what you consider to be 'a lot of people.'

I mentioned that, too. I think most people will think it's sad, have a moment to reflect on him, and then move on. I'm curious as to what the reaction to be if Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh were to kick the bucket.

Joe Grav said...

What reason would that be?

ish said...

Just a guess, but he probably didn't have the best diet and exercise regimen.

Nope. They said he worked to the point of exhaustion during this presidential campaign. Red flag.

Joe Grav said...

I'm curious as to what the reaction to be if Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh were to kick the bucket.

Probably similar, although the 'mainstream' media (the Big 3) have less of a connection with those guys, so it wouldn't be as personal with them.

L-girl said...

Do I think global culture in general is overly obsessed with celebrities as opposed to important issues? Abso-freakin'-lutely. But that's kind of irrelevant to this discussion.

To me it's precisely relevant to this discussion, because I think that's what most people are doing when they ooh and aah over Russert's death.

It seems to me like this has more to do with personal opinion of the person involved than general cultural principles.

Then you're not reading what I'm writing.

I do think Russert was a biased hack. You disagree. That's a separate issue. That's irrelevant.

I'd be saying the same thing about any celebrity death that provoked this kind of shock and horror.

I think the outpouring of supposed grief (it's not real grief, it's sentimental mawk) over Russert's death is about celebrity worship.

And the irony is, Russert was a newsman, not a movie star or a musician,

Why is that ironic?

and despite what Redsock, L, and a few other people think

Joe, you haven't the slightest idea if only "Redsock, L and a few others" think this. Millions of people might agree with this. How would you know?

If you go by media reaction, every person in the world mourned Ronald Reagan's death and thought he was a hero. I can assure you, millions of people felt otherwise. You can't be so myopic as to think you know what people are really thinking and feeling based on mainstream media reaction, can you?

ish said...

My two cents on Russert: what scared me most is that he was only a few years older than I am. PErhaps that is a bit self-centered, but it scared the shit out of me.

You look at someone who is on TV regularly, and he just looks like a regular guy who's in the middle of his life and death is a long ways away from him. Then you look around your own life and your own families and friends, and you see the same thing. And you reflect upon it.

redsock said...

What reason would that be?

People are stupid.


(Example: Co-workers who I hear discussing how much they like (or disapprove of) the names of J-Lo's twins. Or the messenger in the elevator today who glanced up at the annoying news screen and quickly got on his cellpone to tell his boss that R. Kelly was cleared of child porn charges this afternoon.)

Joe Grav said...

I can assure you, millions of people felt otherwise.

I was one of them. But I wasn't so myopic as to think that tehre weren't millions of people who DID consider him a hero.

L-girl said...

"Wow! someone who is extremely influential and famous died. This is not something you see every day." That's a different thing all together.

I disagree. I think it's exactly the same thing.

I always get a shudder when someone my own age dies. I see the obits daily - breast cancer, heart attack. I see people younger than me have died of cancer, it's quite scary.

From what I'm seeing around the blogosphere, that's not what people are doing about Russert.

And just in case you didn't see it the last four times I wrote it, if he meant something to you personally, then this doesn't apply to you.

phil said...

FKR 5 - FLA 3.

FCKING FKRS.

redsock said...

Or the morans who truly believe that deaths happen in "threes" and when two famous people die, speculate who #3 might be?

The world is full of these people.

It's some scary, scary shit.

L-girl said...

But I wasn't so myopic as to think that tehre weren't millions of people who DID consider him a hero.

But were you stupid enough to think that because millions considered him a hero, there must have been some truth to that view?

ish said...

The world is full of these people.

It's some scary, scary shit.


Makes me shudder when I get in the car. I know these people are operating motor vehicles in the same places I am. Yikes!

Joe Grav said...

Why is that ironic?
'Cause most of the people who grouse and lament about our society's celeb-obsessed culture state that we care about celeb non-issues at the expense of important global issues. Russert was a guy who most people considered to be very good at talking about hard issues. There weren't any Britney Spears updates on MTP.

ish said...

If Masterson gets out of this inning without allowing anymore runs, and hands it to the bullpen, he gets credited with a Quality Start. We've certainly banged on about this before. Seems like a pretty average start to me. The Red Sox side of the scoreboard makes Masterson's outing less good-quality.

And there it is.

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