A country's acceptance of free speech is a little like being pregnant. You can't have some freedom of expression. It either exists for everyone or it does not exist at all.
Laura explains the extreme insanity and multi-leveled irony surrounding Ozzie Guillen's five-game suspension for speaking a thought.
I don't understand your freedom of speech stance , he is not going to jail. His employer just chose to discipline him. He could still say stupid shit if he wants to.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Laura explains a position, but I wonder if it would extend to defending Larry Summers to the Harvard faculty.
ReplyDeleteWe have free speech. But that freedom does not free us from the public consequences of that speech. Some Nazi stands up and starts spouting White Power in the crowd next to me, I'm not going to stand there and say, "Oh, that's a nice opinion. Tell me more of what you think."
Ozzie has a responsibility to the Marlins organization, and while he has the right to say whatever he wants, you step on your employers toes enough, they're going to have to respond.
Maurice: Is your last name Godwin?
ReplyDeleteHis employer just chose to discipline him.
ReplyDeleteThat is an ridiculous overrecation.
I see no difference between Guillen talking about his respect for Castro and Schilling talking about supporting Bush (or anyone else talking nicely about any other person on the planet).
The Marlins or MLB can do whatever they want to Guillen. And I think any punishment is bizarre and uncalled for.
(Laura wanted me to write about it, but I chose not do. So she did, instead! Maybe she will expound on her thoughts, but they seem pretty clear in the post.)
Was it even said if he was suspended without pay? And if he wasn't we would all five days of paid leave.
ReplyDeleteLike maurice said ...people may have the freedom of speech as long as i have the freedom to kick your ass...lol
There is not a direct equivalency between Summers ("Dames just aren't as innately capable as us menfolk.") and Guillen ("Damn if the guy hasn't stood up to the biggest imperialist power for over half a century. Impressive").
ReplyDeleteI understand the desire to not say stupid shit, to be mindful of audience and context, and Ozzie has congenital foot-in-mouth, but hysteria is hysteria and the problem is mostly with the response to him than what he actually said.
There's got to be a point at which you stand up to people's insane overreactions otherwise you're pretty much guaranteeing a tyranny of oppressive thuggish dumbassery. Whether it's Ozzie Guillen or Gunter Grass or Bill Maher or Karheinz Stockhausen or....
As Julian Bond (of SNCC, NAACP) said "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding."
More from Dave Zirin
ReplyDelete"Ozzie Guillen, Free Speech and the Case of Loretta Capeheart"
Another interesting article on the topic in Grantland.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7800493/the-idiocy-ozzie-guillen-cuba-mess
Thanks, Nick Sincere. That's the most clear and cogent article I read on the subject (not to dismiss Dave Zirin by any means).
ReplyDelete1. I support freedom of speech for all people in all situations.
ReplyDelete2. There is no equivalence between Larry Summers and Ozzie Guillen, as Nick points out. Larry Summers was/is responsible for employing large numbers of people, and if he thinks one gender is stupid or incapable, that bias is likely to be expressed in his hiring, retention and tenure practices. Ozzie's feelings about Castro has no such effect.
3. Maurice's choice of example is an obvious attempt to bait me. Obvious and lame.
4. I hope you all fully realize how idiotic it is to conjecture on being suspended with or without pay and the idea of Ozzie being given a vacation. I'm assuming none of you is really that stupid.
Perhaps Laura explains a position
ReplyDeletePerhaps.
I don't understand your freedom of speech stance , he is not going to jail.
ReplyDeleteThat's why the First Amendment has no bearing here, as I said in my post. But 9Casey, do you believe freedom of speech is only relevant if there is a prison sentence attached? If I went to a peace demonstration, and my employer saw me on TV and fired me, do you think there's a freedom of speech issue there? Or is freedom of speech not an issue because I hadn't been arrested and put in jail?
If my attendance at that rally had absolutely no bearing on my ability to do my job, do you say, her employer chose to discipline her, no freedom of speech issue there?
EXCELLENT piece by Charles Pierce, via Nick Sincere. I've been trying to ignore Grantland, as I don't exactly need anything else to read, but this may make it impossible.
ReplyDeleteL: You will find it quite easy to avoid Grantland.
ReplyDeleteL: You will find it quite easy to avoid Grantland.
ReplyDeleteA quick peek this morning confirms this.
Larry Summers was/is responsible for employing large numbers of people, and if he thinks one gender is stupid or incapable, that bias is likely to be expressed in his hiring, retention and tenure practices.
ReplyDeleteLarry Summers doesn't think one gender is stupid or incapable, and he never said anything like that.
I point this out because I actually am for free speech for everyone, including Guillen and Summers, and not because I am glad both were disciplined. (I also think they were both wrong, as in mistaken, about what they said.)
Great Charlie Pierce article, thanks for the tip.
ReplyDeletePierce is head and shoulders above other national sports writers.
Larry Summers doesn't think one gender is stupid or incapable, and he never said anything like that.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't use those words. That is my interpretation of what he actually said, about women not advancing in certain fields because of innate differences in gender intelligence.
link
It's not that he didn't use those exact words. He didn't say anything remotely equivalent to stating that women are stupid or incapable.
ReplyDeleteHe said the difference in gender representation in the sciences might be partly due to innate brain differences, which is probably false but not an unreasonable idea.
Also, the hypothesis he was talking about was that the curve of ability distribution is slightly narrower for females than for males, so that there could be significantly less representation at the 'high' end (and at the low end). Even if this were true, it would not mean that women were stupider than men or had less capability.
Anyway, after reading Charlie Pierce's article I feel a lot more angry at Ozzie's critics than I ever was at Summers' detractors.
L, what you are talking is more freedom of assembly.
ReplyDeleteWhat Ozzie did was hurting the Marlins Brand , I am sure there are lot of Cuban fans in Miami.
When asked about Castro, Ozzie should have just said " I love all of our Cuban supporters" not give props to the guy they all fleed from..
But he didn't because he wanted to make the news, Ozzie has always wanted to make the news , its one of the reasons they hired , same as one of the reasons the Red Sox hired Valentine.
And they hired Ozzie knowing he was an idiot , so they can't fire him for being
Maurice, I don't want to argue about interpretations of what Larry Summers said. There is no transcript, as he was speaking from notes, so it's probably down to whose interpretation you read. Your version differs from mine.
ReplyDelete9C, your distinction between freedom of expression and assembly is splitting hairs. Substitute another form of activism if you prefer, writing on my blog or circulating a petition or speaking at a rally, whatever, it makes no difference. And then, could you answer my question?
My point re jail time: if uttering an unpopular view in public carries strongly negative consequences that grossly affect one's life - and we only consider freedom of speech violated if there's an arrest and criminal conviction - then the right to free speech is meaningless. It's a right in name only.
ReplyDeleteYou can go on about Ozzie being an idiot, but there are more important issues around this.