October 29, 2008

Confusion On The Ground

I turned on WS 5 in the fifth inning and sheets of rains were falling. I could not believe the umpires were allowing the game to continue. Tampa Bay scored the tying run in the top of the sixth inning (I'm sure the umps heaved a sigh of relief) and out came the tarp. They could not resume the game last night, so the remainder of Game 5 is now set for tonight.

Reading this SoSH Thread about Bud Selig (as well as the lengthy WS thread starting here), I have to admit that I cannot paint the Used-Car Salesman as the huge idiot I usually do.

Once the game began -- was everyone fooled by a conservative weather forecast? -- Selig followed the rule book. There seems to have been a genuine failure to communicate between Selig, umpires, team officials, managers, players, media, and fans about how the game would be treated if it was delayed/suspended. I will also state that a World Series championship should never be decided by a game that lasts fewer than nine innings.

The Phillies clearly have the advantage for the rest of Game 5. They get to bat first and they get to bat last. Obviously, the game should have been suspended much earlier than it was. But that cannot be undone. And while it would be in violation of the rules, I'm wondering if the best solution is to wipe out what was played of Game 5 and simply start the game over.

182 comments:

The Omnipotent Q said...

Selig said after the game that had the Phillies been ahead 2-1 in the sixth when the tarp went on the field, they would not have been awarded the win, and that the game had to go nine innings (despite what the rule book says).

A better question to ask: Had Carlos Pena made out instead of tying the game with a single in the top of the sixth, would the umps have let the game go on?

phil said...

Looking through the rules, there doesn't seem to be any basis for tossing out the score and starting over. The game could've been called after five innings but wasn't -- there's no way to go back now.

It's a suspended game under 4.11(d)(1) and has to get completed at a future date under 4.12(a)(5)(i). Rule 4.12(d) specifies how suspended games get played (resumed at the exact moment of suspension, with lots of elaboration), and it doesn't permit a do-over.

If that weren't enough, the note to Rule 4.12 says: Any regulation game called due to weather with the score tied (unless situation outlined in 4.12 (a) (5) (i) prevails) is a tie game and must be replayed in its entirety. Rule 4.12(a)(5)(i) is precisely what applies here, so no replay.

MLB's mistake was letting the game start at all or letting it progress far enough to become a regulation game under 4.12(b). Once that happened, resuming the game tonight is their only option under the rules.

ish said...

I don't have a problem resuming the game in the bottom of the 6th. They're going by the rulebook. What might need to change is how this situation is handled in the rulebook.

In the end it kind of evens out, if you think about it. The Rays get a, what some might call a cheap run, or a fraudulent run, in the top of the 6th as the elements prevented the players from playing to their full natural abilities.

So they get that run. The game is tied. We resume the game, begin at the bottom of the 6th, and the Phillies, as you said, get to bat first and bat last. Phillies pitchers will throw 3 innings while Tampa will need to throw 4 innings unless Philadelphia makes the bottom of the 9th unnecessary.

One way or another, tonight will be very, very interesting. A 3.5 inning sprint, all tied up... Don't know who will pitch, don't know who will lead off the inning (pinch-hitter for Hamels)... Can't use David Price immediately because his spot would come up in the 7th...

Never in World Series history has there been a 3.5 inning (regulation) game. Tonight we'll see one.

FenFan said...

Had Carlos Pena made out instead of tying the game with a single in the top of the sixth, would the umps have let the game go on?

From what Selig stated post-game, he would have told the umpires to continue the game in the bad weather had Pena not singled home Upton to tie the score.

IMO, the game should never have begun - playing in cold weather is one thing, but playing in cold, WET weather is another. One slip may mean a groin pull or other injury that takes a key player out of the game.

Jake of All Trades said...

Don't know if you saw this SI article that does a pretty good analysis, along with appropriate praise and blame:

Unconventional Thinking: MLB makes right decision to cancel

As for the Used-Car Salesman persona, I liked this part:

"Selig, in perhaps his most disingenuous moment of the entire press conference, said, "These fans obviously came and bought tickets for a night game, so they deserve to come back and see a night game." Right. Because the scheduling of World Series games is done taking into account, first and foremost, the convenience of the attendees. Because fans have demanded 8:30 local time starts for years. Because when World Series games are played in the Pacific time zone, MLB gives a rip about those people's work schedules."

The game will be a night game because Fox says so, and for Selig to sit there and say what he said insults everyone's intelligence. Just be honest and say that the game will be a night game because MLB doesn't control its own scheduling. As if the city of Philadelphia, and people holding tickets wouldn't be perfectly happy with a 7 p.m. start. Or 2 p.m. Or 9 a.m. That comment, to me, was the worst thing said last night, and goes a long way toward letting the world know who runs baseball.

L-girl said...

Good historical perspective from Alan Schwarz.

redsock said...

MLB's mistake was letting the game start at all or letting it progress far enough to become a regulation game under 4.12(b).

This was the point I wanted to make.

I can imagine baseball not being thrilled with the possibility of tossing 3 or 4 innings into the trash can and starting over from stratch -- probably not what they'd like to do with a WS game.

ish said...

So, the way the current rules are written... a game that is less than five innings old, if the rain stops the game and they can't resume, would be replayed in its entirety at a future date.

A game that goes longer than five innings where one team is leading another ends as an official game.

A tie game after five innings is suspended and will resume at a later date.

Correct? If so, it sounds like that needs to change.

Of course, a lot of things need to change. Television inflexibility, etc., start times, how the games are broadcast, making the games more available to those without cable, etc. Psst. There still are people who don't have cable television.

phil said...

Correct?

Sort've. It's a bit like the infield fly rule: it's supposed to get called a certain way, but it still has to get called that way in order for it to happen. The rules currently permit an indefinite rain delay.

9casey said...

The game that started at 10:00 pm should have been cancelled as well.

I heard both teams were asked before the game what they wanted to do and they both said to start it......

For some reason 3.5 innings won't end till 11:00 pm ....

World series has turned into a television nightmare.....games should start at 7:00 no reason to start any later,besides ratings, its a joke....

Jake of All Trades said...

Do they still stop serving beer after the 7th tonight?

Kathy said...

This is cool. No matter how it got here... This game is cool.

ish said...

That was me.

ish said...

Balfour's warming up... So is Howell.

ish said...

And I have the hiccups.

redsock said...

Sut and OB on the international feed say this is "a sprint to the finish" -- then Sut says it'll be "a fine ending to the 2008 season".

Ummmm, Sut, this is not Game 7.

redsock said...

and with that i tune in the buffalo feed with faux.

redsock said...

TBR: 000 101 xxx - 2 5 0
PHI: 200 00x xxx - 2 4 1

ish said...

Looks like Price is up now... Not surprising.

redsock said...

better:

TBR: 000 101 ... - 2 5 0
PHI: 200 00. ... - 2 4 1

redsock said...

it's weird to watch this as carefully as i am -- and not be scoring.

ish said...

It's funny... No national anthem, but they'll probably do GBA In... One inning.

redsock said...

It's funny... No national anthem

YAY!

efd said...

alright, suspended game game thread!

redsock said...

i have been absent from media - is this the first WS game to be stopped and started on another day?

the phils could play for about an hour, win, and celebrate ... bizarre

ish said...

alright, suspended game game thread!

Yay! A game thread!

And a Jenkins double!

ish said...

i have been absent from media - is this the first WS game to be stopped and started on another day?

This is the first suspended World Series game ever.

efd said...

Allan, yes - in fact, I'm pretty sure this is the first game that was ever interrupted at all once it started.

efd said...

yeah, what ish said. :)

ish said...

Price and Howell warming.

ish said...

How've things been in Chez L-Sock and the GTA, Allan?

Iwamura drops it! Phillies take the lead!

efd said...

I'm curious to know the answer to JoaT's beer question above.

How bizarre would it be if the game stays tied and they end up playing 9 innings tonight after all?

[Iwamura drops ball]

er.... well, it could still happen!

ish said...

And Ball-four is gone. Howell to the rescue.

ish said...

It would have been cool also, if they stayed tied deep into extra innings and it ended up being the length of a regular game.

redsock said...

pretty quiet here. was in the city using some birthday book store gift certs today. L is out.

we actually had some light snow flurries this morning! and when i parked the car in toronto, some cars in the lot had snow on them. must have been from further north.

redsock said...

howell is not pleased.

redsock said...

i mean ball four is not pleased.

we'll see about howell

ish said...

So Balfour goes an inning and a third and gives up a run.

ish said...

We had the tiniest, finest snow flurries this evening. I go outside and feel one on my face and thought wait a minute... this isn't your run-of-the-mill rain drop.

redsock said...

looks like matson in T7

efd said...

NW New Jersey (not where I am) had a few inches of snow yesterday - lots of downed trees and power outages.

Speaking of weather, I was at Game 3 on Saturday (I'd signed up for the lottery to buy tickets on the Phillies' site a few weeks ago) -- not pleasant! But an exciting game, although I think I'm more excited about having seen it now than I was at the time.

ish said...

McCarver said the Rays have been "penalized" because they're playing in a national league park.

ish said...

Amazing how some locations in western New York have already received well over a foot of snow. This past storm system and lake effect snow. That'd be so weird to have snow every day pretty much.

redsock said...

lame rays allowing a SB on a 136 play

ish said...

Thus endeth perhaps the most anticipated and famous bottom half of the 6th inning in history.

redsock said...

perhaps?

redsock said...

phooey - seeing political ads during the buffalo commercials. one anti-obama and some local one. (i'm told obama is not ready for the white house yet (though apparently palin is)).

ish said...

Hamels in line for the W, by the way. Still able to be the only pitcher in history to go 5-0 in the postseason.

ish said...

(i'm told obama is not ready for the white house yet (though apparently palin is)).

Obama's $3 million half-hour advertisement/infomercial ran before the game. It was very, very well done, for an "infomercial". Looked like one of those high-budget documentaries.


Rocco ties the game with a dong!

efd said...

no win for Hamels now.

redsock said...

FUCKIN A

ish said...

Nope. No win for Hamels now. Couple minutes after I said it.

redsock said...

i was thinking about a hinske dong when rocco swung

ish said...

Price warming quickly now.

Allan, who would you like to see win tonight?

ish said...

i was thinking about a hinske dong when rocco swung

Intersting, throwing Howell up there to bunt.

ish said...

In this situation Howell will actually execute the bunt. Those things happen in the world series.

redsock said...

i don't really care, but i guess i now want tampa to win (tonight anyway)!

ish said...

So now Madson's gone and it's Romero to the rescue.

redsock said...

well, we'll have no shortage of moves/strategy tonight!

ish said...

i don't really care, but i guess i now want tampa to win (tonight anyway)!

I think it'd be cool for the Phillies to do what the Rays did to us. Rays win tonight. Go back to the Trop, win Game 6, then Philly comes back and wins Game 7.

As far as it goes right now, I'm up for anything. I still don't want the Rays to win the Series, though.

tim said...

redsock you aren't watching the international feed on sportsnet?

redsock said...

fyi re playing 9 tonight:
longest WS game by innings is 14 (red sox and ruth beat brooklyn in game 2, 1916).

redsock said...

no, watching fox on a buffalo station. i am in a no-sut zone!

tim said...

Ahh, no idea who they were but it sounded more soothing than buck/mccarver.

And the Fox camera angle is (well, was when i saw it - might have been in tampa) god awful

redsock said...

wow -- daring shit from bartlett -- and close

ish said...

Wow! What a play.

ish said...

And the Fox camera angle is (well, was when i saw it - might have been in tampa) god awful

They're back to a more normal camera angle in Philadelphia. But if this goes back to the Trop, rest assured that assward camera angle will be back.

ish said...

But Bartlett had some big balls for trying to score from second on that.

tim said...

TB has to hold them...probably will get shut down by lidge for two, then might have a chance against the lesser half of Philly's 'pen. If it gets to that point we may see Moyer or Myers.

I don't care who wins, I just want there to be 8 or more runs so I win the over/under I bet on on monday =)

ish said...

Bartlett wasn't even running that hard!

tim said...

But Bartlett had some big balls for trying to score from second on that.

They showed the replay, Zimmer was at 3b waving him in!

ish said...

That's a good thing about the Red Sox not in the World Series... You can bet objectively with people.

redsock said...

not hard to third, no way.

efd said...

McCarver refers to J.C. Romero as J.C. Martin, who hasn't played since 1972.

Man, everyone's smacking the ball around tonight!

ish said...

So now Howell's gone. Brad Chadford to the rescue.

redsock said...

looked like that hit the wall beyond the state farm sign, seemed like a dong, i guess not.

ish said...

Scott Eyre and Chad Durbin warming for Philadelphia.

ish said...

Price is back up for Tampa.

ish said...

Victorino hit a grand slam in Game 2 of the ALDS. He's bunting right now.

ish said...

McCarver says he doesn't think he should bunt. He kept trying to bunt... Gets a 1-2 count, bunt is off, he grounds out to second to get Bruntlett to third. Buck lauding the at-bat now.

redsock said...

felix single up middle, with infield in, 4-3 phils.

efd said...

wow, great grab by Iwamura!

ish said...

Derek Jeter is sitting in his living room watching that play thinking man... Wish I could do that.

Romero was allowed to hit... Dobbs goes back to the bench. Very interesting strategy in general, for sure.

redsock said...

pedroia-esque!!!

redsock said...

TBR: 000 101 1
PHI: 200 001 1

ish said...

Lidge is warming now.

redsock said...

234 for duh rayz

Amy said...

Wow, a game thread and I didn't even know! Cool!

As much as I am indifferent with respect to who wins the Series, I think it would be wrong for the Phillies to win the Series based on a 3 and half inning game where they get 3 more outs than the other team. I hope the Rays win this one.

ish said...

That DP was HUGE. HUGE!

redsock said...

fuckton

ish said...

There was no GBA, by the way.

redsock said...

There was no GBA, by the way.

No anthem. No GBA.

This is my favorite game of all time.

phil said...

Did Buck really say Crawford was 0-3 in this game before he got that hit? Does his performance on Monday really have anything to do with today? (Apparently not.)

tim said...

Insurance dong, pls.

ish said...

Aybar takes over for Pena at 1st base.

And Price is in.

tim said...

Close.

tim said...

C'mon utley....i need my over!

ish said...

Listening to Phillies radio. Harry Kalas at the mic.

Amy said...

So are you all rooting for the Phillies? Odd to be in a game thread where not everyone is rooting for the same team...

ish said...

Kalas has a way of making Game 5 of the World Series sound like a regular season game on a lazy summer afternoon.

tim said...

Ehh, I don't really care. I just bet that it would be 8 or more runs so I want one more run in! And I don't think they'll get it off Lidge.

Howard - finish this postseason on a high note!

redsock said...

I'm rooting for the FKR.

tim said...

Harry Kalas at the mic.

That sounds dirty.

ish said...

So are you all rooting for the Phillies? Odd to be in a game thread where not everyone is rooting for the same team...

I'm letting things happen. I want the Phillies to win the Series, but I wouldn't mind the Rays taking this to Game 7. How's your late October, Amy? Get any snow out there?

Amy said...

Really, Allan? I thought you had said you wanted the Rays to lose last I checked. Or, like me, do you just want them to win this game so the series continues?

ish said...

Tim, how much did you have riding on this bet?

tim said...

90 feet closer to me winning 10 dollars!

redsock said...

just tonight. i'll see how i feel about game 6 when game 6 starts.

Amy said...

We had a few flurries, Ish, but just a momentary thing. Damn cold, though. How are things in Maine? Toronto? Any snow up north?

tim said...

$8.50

big money for me!

ehh I won 20 on the Bs last night so I'm good.

And this concludes my brief history of sports betting. That isn't proline.

Amy said...

OK, three more outs, and if no scoring, no more baseball til spring. :(

ish said...

Amy, the lightest of flurries. To the point where I had to decide whether it was actually snow or not. Happened this evening.

redsock said...

Lidge v

Longoria
Navarro
Baldelli
(Bartlett)

tim said...

My car was coated in a layer of flurries, and windshields were icy. Up here in Waterloo.

I'm spending a couple days up in Waterloo so I'm not at home with my gloves/ice scraper.

Luckily I found another, crappier ice scraper in my car. But my hands were chilly after that.

ish said...

ehh I won 20 on the Bs last night so I'm good.

You didn't bet they'd win 1-0 did you? That was the first time since, I think 1936, that the Bruins won back-to-back 1-0 games.

ish said...

I've had to scrape off frost a few times. Nothing else yet. Well, I made my sister do it. I was giving her a ride at 7 AM.

tim said...

heh no i just bet on the win. (including OT). theres a regulation win category, but i didnt want to be that risky.

yeah they were good games. but thomas can't stand on his head forever.

anyway enough about this. we can discuss Bs for the long long winter, after the next 3 outs!

efd said...

(delayed response)

I'm rooting for the Rays. But I won't lose any sleep if the Phillies win tonight.

tim said...

World series being won at home - kick ass.

ish said...

This has my heart beating a touch faster, interestingly. Finality.

redsock said...

i wont cry if tb loses.

a good friend of ours from brooklyn (now in london) is a huge phillies fan (we watched joe carter dong in 93 at their apt. good thing they drank (a lot)!)

ish said...

I love being able to pick up AM radio stations at night from far away.

tim said...

Two.

Amy said...

I will be more sad that baseball is really over than that the Rays lost.

My Phila. relatives will be happy.

efd said...

a huge phillies fan (we watched joe carter dong in 93 at their apt.

Man, that must have been crushing. I can't imagine being so close only to lose on--

oh, wait, yes I can.

ish said...

Hinske probably will bat next.

Nope. Zobrist.

tim said...

Game going to end at the time of a normal reg season game.

ish said...

I will be more sad that baseball is really over than that the Rays lost.

I certainly relate to you there. Definitely.

tim said...

That joe dong was fucking epic.

redsock said...

Also L was going to college in philly in 1980.

ish said...

Navarro keeps things alive with a base knock.

redsock said...

that was when she saw a game at the vet -- giving her one more park than me. grrrrrr

tim said...

So was the game before the joe dong, where "Wild Thing" blew the lead and the jays scored like 6 in the 8th or something.


ooo shit, navarro on.

redsock said...

rut roh lidge - don't think about losing

ish said...

Kind of torn with feelings. It doesn't feel like the Rays are just going to finish this one off without scoring again.

Zobrist up with Fernando Perez running for fat MDC.

Amy said...

Tying run on...maybe the baseball season has some life left?

ish said...

If they tie it, I hope it goes for awhile.

redsock said...

she was pretty effing fast with the off button on that TV, i'll say that.

ish said...

Perez steals second... Not surprising.

tim said...

Perez has my $10 profit in his hands!

redsock said...

i do recall that 15-14 game was totally nuts.

Amy said...

Scoring position!

Well, Allan, guess you have to get to Philadelphia. Or else go to another park without Laura, which wouldn't seem like fun. Which others have you not yet been to?

redsock said...

hinske!

ish said...

One more for Philadelphia.

tim said...

One.

efd said...

she was pretty effing fast with the off button on that TV

Sounds like me (and probably some others here) a couple of Sundays ago.

phil said...

Two out.

Hinske to K for the third.

tim said...

I want hinske to dong here, as a big FUCK YOU to Toronto fans.

redsock said...

L agrees

FUCK THE JAYS!!!!!!!!!!

ish said...

This is certainly the way it should end if it does right now. Tying run at second with a perfect postseason hitter at the dish. 1 for 1 with a dong. How can you be more perfect?

tim said...

Wow, that check swing was way less checky than the Utley one last inning.

redsock said...

weak shit from hisnke
0-2

Amy said...

Yikes.

tim said...

There it is.

phil said...

Phillies win. FKRs fucked.

Hinske Ked.

redsock said...

damn - no longer defending champs.

Amy said...

That's it. No more baseball...

Now I can simply obsess about the damn election...

See you all around the hot stove!

ish said...

Phillies win it!

Fuck you Rays! The Red Sox will NOT face the World Champions 18 times next season!

ish said...

How many days until Truck Day?

tim said...

Finally won at home. Good stuff.

tim said...

FOX showing the reaction of every player.

phil said...

Truck Day is still to be determined.

ish said...

One nice thing... All the kids can stay up and watch the celebration.

ish said...

So now... the off-season has fully begun. Only ____ shopping days until Christmas.

ish said...

"It's amazing, man. Amazing how one year ago the Boston Red Sox cut me loose and this year I'm a world champion."

J.C. Romero.

ish said...

That's one guy who I feel very happy for. Struggles in Boston, gets DFA'd, goes to Philadelphia, pitches well, earns a set-up role... and now gets to feel the joy of winning a world series for himself.

efd said...

All the kids can stay up and watch the celebration

Good point, ish!

Maybe Fox will figure out a way to have all elimination/clinching games spread out over two nights like this so that they don't end so late. 'Cause, of course, it's not like starting them earlier is an option.

Nice to see everyone for a couple of hours, see you during the off-season!

ish said...

I'd guess Hamels for MVP.

phil said...

phil said...
Two out.
Hinske to K for the third.
Wed Oct 29, 09:56:00 PM


No prognostication loving? :)

tim said...

Watched the first pitch in japan, and the last in Philly. Good year, sucks this isn't our time. But, hey, it was a good ride. We'll be back next year and ready to kick some ass.

100% Timlin-free! (hopefully)

ish said...

philstradamus.

ish said...

I think the Phillies fans still had it in them to boo Bud Selig. Hahaha.

tim said...

Wouldn't romero have gotten an 07 ring because he was part of the team for at least part of the year?

ish said...

Wouldn't romero have gotten an 07 ring because he was part of the team for at least part of the year?

Yep. I'm pretty sure he has an '07 ring.

phil said...

With any luck, the Rays will peak as the late-1990s Spiders and never amount to anything.

tim said...

I guess there is a fuck you to jays fans of sorts, with Gillick winning the WS.

redsock said...

will any rays champs hats turn up on ebay?

tim said...

Charlie Manuel sounds wasted

ish said...

Hamels MVP.

ish said...

LMAO. Selig: "Cole was 1-0, with a 2.77 earned run average."

tim said...

Hamels MVP. Double CS-WS mvp, nice.

tim said...

Anyway sleep time. See you soon, JoS!