David Ortiz:Today I was informed by a reporter that I was on the 2003 list of MLB players to test positive for performance-enhancing substances. This happened right before our game, and the news blindsided me. I said I had no comment because I wanted to get to the bottom of this.Michael Schmidt of the New York Times reported this morning that both Ortiz and Manny Ramirez tested positive in 2003.
I want to talk about this situation and I will as soon as I have more answers. In the meantime I want to let you know how I am approaching this situation. One, I have already contacted the Players Association to confirm if this report is true. I have just been told that the report is true. Based on the way I have lived my life, I am surprised to learn I tested positive. Two, I will find out what I tested positive for. And, three, based on whatever I learn, I will share this information with my club and the public. You know me - I will not hide and I will not make excuses.
I want to thank my family, the Red Sox, my teammates, and the fans for their patience and support.
As you can see from this screenshot of this Globe webpage -- 11:30 PM Thursday -- both Tony Massarotti and Dan Shaughnessy have chosen to immediately jump to the conclusion that "Big Papi is a myth", he is "forever damaged", and "his entire Red Sox career is a lie". Me, I'm going to save my judgment until more information is known. That may not be the norm among sports columnists -- where the goal often seems to be proclaiming louder and more self-righteously from the rooftops than anyone else -- but what do I know? I'm a mere blogger.
Notice that these mainstream pundits are doing exactly what they deride bloggers of doing -- passing immediate judgment before all the facts are known.
32 comments:
Schilling, SoSH, 5:29 PM, on Ortiz's comment about being surprised by this news:
"I am now thinking that NONE of the guys that tested positive in 2003 knew it. It's the only thing that can explain some of the reactions and at the same time explain some guys comments over the past few years about being firmly against and outspoken and PEDs.
Whatever the case the list needs to just get the hell out already.
This is tiring and absolutely the worst possible way for this to come out for the fans, the game and the innocent players."
Someone else pointed out: "The Mitchell Report indicates that all the players who tested positive in 2003 were informed by the players association in 2004. If the report is true and he is on the list, he should have been notified, so there should be no shock at this."
Schilling: "I never saw that. If that is the case I am worried we are getting ready to hear an "But I didn't do it" defense...."
SoxScout: "Nomar just said on NESN that some players refused to take the test and said to put them down as positive so that there would be testing in the game. And now the list is alive. Those guys are screwed."
Schilling: "I don't think that's true. I know we talked about refusing as a team, as did the White Sox, but we were then told we'd be tested positive and subject to disciplinary action. I don't know that ANYONE didn't take the test.
Hell if I was using and was getting tested, and knew that I could refuse and it would equal the same result, I'd have refused to take the test. Never really thought about it that way."
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SoSHer mikeford: "Jim Rice just alluded to some sort of big/shocking announcement within the next month on NESN. Said at the HOF Induction they had a discussion with Selig."
Gehrig38, SoSH, last edited at 6:53 PM:
In thinking back on this, hindsight being the wonderful thing it is, here is what I should have done instead of standing up and asking the team to NOT take the test.
I should have refused, and immediately afterwards, through the union or agents, found out the others that wanted to do the same, and then issued a statement saying we would 'test positive' by denying to take the test. In doing so we would be attempting to trigger the 5% threshold to implement testing to clean the game up.
How fucking naive was I? Sure I thought people were using, thought I might know of some, but man, it seems like it's a shit ton more than 20-30% no?
When we hit, I think, something like 7% I was relieved, surprised too, that we'd have testing and that so few players got hit. I didn't know at the time or didn't care to look at the fact that HGH was untraceable really.
I am starting to think many MANY players I competed against, that beat me, really didn't. That sucks.
But I'll be ok going to my grave knowing that ya, my work habits weren't Jerry Rice like, but I pushed myself and had people that pushed me and that I got as much out of my God given talent as I could. I could have done some things different that might have not seen me have shoulder surgery so young, but I think that almost 2k IP after that without HGH, without Steroids, is probably my proudest accomplishment given everything that is now coming out.
What I wonder is why I was, and this is the Gods honest truth, never physically exposed to it. I still to this day have never seen anyone, in a clubhouse or out, inject themselves or ingest either. That's the only thing I hang on to in saying I don't believe it was 75-80%.
I could be bullshit and the most blind human ever, but I don't think so. I was always into the team, and in and around the clubhouses.
Lastly, get the fucking list out, now. Enough of the water torture pace.
Oh and ya, I still think if you are caught, once or ten times, all personal stats and records, awards, go away.
Make it a clean sweep. Go back, reward the guys that didn't cheat, that you know of. Problem is that could be it's own circus, when player B, who finished 2nd, and is now awarded his MVP, comes out or gets nailed farther down the road, then you reissue for a 3rd time, the 1985 MVP or 1995 CY. Screw it, just wipe the record books clean and start over I guess.
That or you make HGH legal......
One more thing. Please, wherever you are, stop with the 'well he wasn't big' or "he didn't have huge muscles" defense. That's bullshit. I am firmly 100% convinced that based on what I now understand to be the primary benefits of HGH players in MLB stand to gain far more than any other sport. It's focus is on regeneration and making you 'fresh'.
I can think of NONE, nothing, nada, zero, zilch, no single more important physical advantage (which in itself makes it a HUGE mental edge) than me being April fresh on August 20th. That gives a player an edge that is beyond measurement, so far beyond, it's incomprehensible to me.
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The whole "wipe the stats clean" is such bullshit -- and if you think about it for more than 5 seconds, it is completely improbably and impossible.
1. You will never know exactly who cheated and who did not.
2. If you re-figure batters' stats, you have to re-figure the stats of every single pitcher each of those guys faced. And re-adjust every fielder's fielding stats. And re-adjust the score of every single game. And re-adjust the league/division standings for every applicable season. .....
It's utter nonsense.
Also:
Now that we have replay for unclear HR calls, are we going to go back through video and re-visit all of those plays and have a panel of umps re-review them and change the calls that were obviously wrong? No, we are not.
Should we alter Gaylord Perry's game logs because he cheated by defacing the ball?
Didn't Norm Cash admit that he used corked bats throughout all of 1961 when he won the batting title? Any call for wiping his entire season off the books?
The results were the results, even if the umps clearly blew the calls, if Perry loaded up the ball, if Cash used an illegal bat.
Same deal here. The players played -- and the results are what they are.
So far the way Ortiz is handling this and the things he's said, makes me more of a fan of him than I was at the start of today. Which was a pretty big fan.
This is pretty big not for naming David Ortiz as someone who used performance-enhancing drugs, but for exposing the selective naming and, as Schilling's comments reference, the actual process of this "anonymous" drug test.
Welcome back redsock. Wish you came home to better news. Is there anyone on these 03/04 teams that you would be totally shocked to see on the list? Trot? Damon? Tek? Belhorn? Millah? Maybe Bill Mueller would surprise me. What about the pitchers?
This is pretty big not for naming David Ortiz as someone who used performance-enhancing drugs, but for exposing the selective naming and, as Schilling's comments reference, the actual process of this "anonymous" drug test.
Yup. I agree. Anonymous, confidential testing.
The testing/leaking process is more corrupt than the use of PEDs. Athletes use PEDs to help them win. It's against the rules, but we know why they do it, and most of us can't be sure we wouldn't do the same thing in the same situation.
But the motives behind this selective naming, the leaking of supposedly anonymous and confidential information, but only about certain players - what's going on there?
Wish you came home to better news.
Wish we had better news on the scoreboard while we were there!
L-girl, welcome back too! These two losses were absolute stinkers. What a truly horrible week. And we know tomorrow could bring great joy....or even more horror. Quick glance at the big guns in the boston media - nobody seems to be giving Papi the benefit of the doubt.
Welcome back guys, well that sucked for ya.
Ish said...
So far the way Ortiz is handling this and the things he's said, makes me more of a fan of him than I was at the start of today. Which was a pretty big fan.
This is pretty big not for naming David Ortiz as someone who used performance-enhancing drugs, but for exposing the selective naming and, as Schilling's comments reference, the actual process of this "anonymous" drug test.
The whole thing stinks, but I can say I am not a bigger fan, because in that Feb. 17 interview where he talked about steriods and said that a player should be banned for a year and to test everyone....
When you lie about not using steroids , because you think when you gave that sample in 2003 that no one would ever now the truth....When it comes out that you did you like a bigger fool, now it seems as though a lot of those Dominicans who worked with that trainer are positive for PED's.
It also has to answer some of the questions of where his power has gone.....
This may be a knee-jerk reaction , but for me a little luster of '04 is gone..
Nice to have you 2 back......
We have all seen this list on other sites right? It seems people are still guessing at it. I saw it on a cleveland newspaper blog this morning. I thought it was fake but then this happens.
Good to have y'all back. I was jonesing for a Sox fix, and I wanted to hear what Allen thought of this whole circus.
Just a question...how would all the people getting up in arms about steroids feel if the spitball was allowed back into baseball? After all, when the spitball was banned in 1920, dudes like Burleigh Grimes were grandfathered in (after being designated as such, which I hadn't known before) and allowed to continue throwing an illegal pitch. I mean, think about that! If certain players were designated as HGH users and grandfathered in after a ban, Bruce Jenkins' head would literally explode. Like, just blow up like The Godfather. And that's with the debate still raging over what PEDs actually do to improve a player's performance. We KNOW quite well how a spitball affects a performance - I believe the dead ball era owes a thing or two to it.
Baseball can be such a goddamn farce sometimes. And that goes double for the mugs that cover it in the mainstream media. Thank God for the Internet, sez I.
Just a test...promise I'll delete it if I get through.
Apologies, I was testing whether I could get through from wordpress, as I closed down my blog a while back due to extraneous problems.
I am your noble Lord from London...
The news never shocked me, it has to be said, and I sort of shrugged it off. You can say all you like about things losing their lustre - it is just emotive claptrap that will diminish as these revelations fade through time.
I am somewhat perplexed about the world of performance enhancing. Look at what is going on in swimming at the moment, where records are dropping every ten seconds due to sanctioned performance enhancing (special swim suits). It baffles me how anyone thinks it is ever going to stop. 20 years ago Ben Johnson run 9.79 with his eyes yellow and popping out. Now Usain Bolt cruises over the line in 9.67 (?) and I don't think "great, he's clean" but "Ben Johnson must have been a really useless cheater".
My Yankee wife said it taints the biased Mitchell report with its absence of high level Red Sox players, but that's twisted. We all knew the NY media would get to the Red Sox some day - always going to happen. Then the rest of the media would jump over it. Who cares what CHB says. He is the epitome of the whingeing, self-righteous hack who can't wait to get miserable. People like him have been bashing themselves senseless waiting for this.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. My major hope is this isn't too destructive a distraction this season as we have a lot to focus on. I'm more worried about our inconsistent (it seems) offense than a six year old test result leaked for media prurience.
Iam not going to be an arrogant Yankee fan about this, and I agree this should not taint any title that Boston has one, either in '04 or '07.
We had Clemens, Andy, ARod (now), Knoblauch, and whomever else.....what we didn't have (or haven't heard of) is Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mo, Brosius, Tino, O'Neil...which is a large chunk of our championship core. It will raise eyebrows that two of Boston's everyday players (and their two best players) during their championship years were juicing. It has to be disappointing for all fans...just as we were disappointed in NY to hear about Andy, because he is a true Yankee, and someone that we relate to, and thank for our 4 WS wins.....
I have a question for Sox fans....did you not think Papi was on the juice? He was an afterthought in Minny, then came to Boston and became an All Star, and dominant player. This couldn't have been blindsiding to the fans as it was to Ortiz.
Steroids just suck. They have ruined baseball, and have affected our love of some of our favorite players. I hope for Papi, he just owns up, admits his wrongdoings...and he'll move on.
I have a question for Sox fans....did you not think Papi was on the juice? He was an afterthought in Minny, then came to Boston and became an All Star, and dominant player.
There have been players who have changed teams, changed hitting philosophies, received much better coaching, and/or simply figured shit out throughout history. That is not very surprising.
However, if anyone thought that Boston was the one team that was free of drug users ... well, that is the very definition of naive. Of course, the Sox had users. And they have users right now.
Javy Lopez was on the list i saw
First BR says this
Iam not going to be an arrogant Yankee fan about this
then he says this
what we didn't have (or haven't heard of) is Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mo, Brosius, Tino, O'Neil...which is a large chunk of our championship core. It will raise eyebrows that two of Boston's everyday players (and their two best players) during their championship years were juicing.
As if Boston could have won 2 WS with only Manny and Ortiz and no one else.
The surrounding notes about A-Rod and Andy The True Yankee doesn't ameliorate it. It's still arrogant Yankee crap. As if they have anything to brag about when it comes to steroid use!
Anyone who thinks doping calls into question the legitimacy of any team's championships - Yankees, Red Sox or any other team - isn't worth talking to.
There have been a couple of fake lists that have popped up, but they have been fairly quickly debunked as fake.
Don't even bother with this BR kid.
He didn't even have to courage to offer up a response to my inquiry of his moronic post on ish's gamethread for yesterday afternoon's game.
Don't even bother with this BR kid.
I ususally have him on permanent mental ignore, but lost my way there for a minute.
I should have realized that this --
Iam not going to be an arrogant Yankee fan about this
-- is the same thing as "I'm not a racist, but...". Whenever you hear that, the next thing out of the person's mouth is virulent bigotry.
He didn't even have to courage to offer up a response to my inquiry of his moronic post on ish's gamethread for yesterday afternoon's game.
I'll go check it out.
If anyone is interested, here is B.R. from Thursday's game thread at ish's place:
Blogger B.R. said...
Doesn't seem like the Yankees are that much worse than those Red Sox now, are they?
Steroids.....it was only a matter of time...you didn't think Papi did that naturally did you?
And to think...we only had Pettitte and Clemens juicing...they didn't plan everyday...yeah, Knoblauch too maybe but not Jeter, Posada, or Bernie.....
Shame on you David
Shame
July 30, 2009 5:11 PM
My comment, which has not been moderated yet, said (more or less):
Very interesting to see B.R. acting like a typical MFY troll outside of JoS. He should either be an MFY dick everywhere or live up to his claim of being a respectful fan.
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I had assumed he was an jerk trying to surpress his inner troll, but I wasn't sure. ... Now I'm sure.
Tim - Yes, I acknowledge ARod did steroids...he is a huge embarrassment to himself, the Yankees, and to his fans, mainly because he denied over and over that he took steroids, and then got caught. There is no excuse for what he did....and yeah, my post on Ish's blog was immature, sort of basking in the glow of this unveiling....but the response to your ARod comment is...no matter what records he breaks, or championships he brings to NY...he will always have that asterisk next to his name. Just as Papi and Manny will for what they did.
RedSock - Very true about change in coaching, and that was naive of me to think that just cause he improved his performance it was due to roids. Look at Raul Ibanez this year, he has completely revamped his game, and has become an All-Star....so that comment of mine was a bit ignorant.
L-Girl: I was just trying to debate, and continue the conversation from an opposing fan's point of view. Figure you'd jump down my throat when I make a post (as you always do). I was just stating facts. Yes there was Mueller, Foulke, Cabrera, Varitek, Schill, Lowe etc. and Manny/Ortiz weren't solely responsible for '04 and '07....but they were the two best players on the Sox. That's all I was mentioning...not being ignorant and saying "ha ha....the Sox had more important players on steroids than the Yankees..." that would be ignorant. Comparing what I said to a racist is ignorant.
You make it like I come here....post taunting messages, and all pro-Yankees propaganda....when that's really not the case. I just want to talk baseball...this is a huge baseball issue...thus me posting.
Jeez....
"Very interesting to see B.R. acting like a typical MFY troll outside of JoS. He should either be an MFY dick everywhere or live up to his claim of being a respectful fan."
Yes...I was a jerk. No excuse. It was just that the news broke, and I have heard since Arod, Andy etc. was all this bullshit about the Yankees being tainted, steroid users etc. So my inner-troll came out. That's not how I usually post. Maturity level forgotten on that one. My bad.
So in response to Allan calling him out, BR apologizes.
And in response to my calling him out, he says "Figure you'd jump down my throat when I make a post (as you always do)."
Funny how that works.
He also says "I was just stating facts."
The hell you were. At Ish's blog, you say, "And to think...we only had Pettitte and Clemens juicing..."
That's not a fact.
We don't know how many Yankees are on that list and we don't know how many Red Sox are on that list.
We don't know how many players are using substances that weren't detectable in 2003, so aren't on that list.
We know very few facts about steroid use in major league baseball, other than its existence.
"That's all I was mentioning...not being ignorant and saying "ha ha....the Sox had more important players on steroids than the Yankees..." that would be ignorant.
And that's exactly what you did, both here and at Ish's blog.
"Comparing what I said to a racist is ignorant."
Read it again. I was not comparing what you said to racism. I was comparing what you said to comments where people first issue a denial - I'm not ____, but - then do the exact thing they just denied.
One further correction. I don't "jump down your throat" when you post. I usually completely ignore you.
Which I will return to doing right now...
To answer B.R.'s question, Did I think Papi was on them, I took him at his word this year when he said he would be disrespecting his family and the game, so No I didn't think he was on them , I just thought he was genuine......Turns out he is a liar like the rest of them (unless by some miracle , it really isn't true)
Another thing many Yankees fans like to do is draw this false distinction between "real" Yankees and the others. A-Rod using steroids is a disgrace, but he's not a "real Yankee," so it's not a disgrace to the team.
Newsflash. He wears the uniform, he's on the payroll, he plays for the team: like it or not, he's a real Yankee.
Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Roger Clemens and any other PED users who play or have played for the Yankees: real Yankees, all.
As most of you know, I don't care about PED use, and I think the whole issue is massively overblown and hypocritical. But Yankees fans gloating over Papi and Manny, that is just beyond the pale.
""That's all I was mentioning...not being ignorant and saying "ha ha....the Sox had more important players on steroids than the Yankees..." that would be ignorant.
And that's exactly what you did, both here and at Ish's blog."
And I apologized......and admitted that it was childish. Please keep me on mental block...I appreciate it....I am not here to converse with you, just to discuss baseball.
Real cool distinguishing between "Real Yankees" and "fake Yankees"...so proper, and blunt. You know what I'm saying...players who were here during our glory years, and who had a hand in our Championships. Obviously if you're on the payroll you're a real Yankee....but if someone was to ask a Yankee fan, who they support/root/respect more...Nick Swisher or Jorge Posada...no one would blink an eye at Swish, because Jorge has been with us a while.
Steroids are steroids...and it wouldn't suprise me if one day we saw Albert's name on the list....everyone is popping up.
I'll keep you on mental block for now on.
So in response to Allan calling him out, BR apologizes.
And in response to my calling him out, he says "Figure you'd jump down my throat when I make a post (as you always do)."
Funny how that works.
Indeed. Please stop, BR. Let it go.
And yes...just for clarification...if you're in uniform as a Yankee and take steroids, or have been caught doing steroids...you are a disgrace to the team...
Giambi-Disgrace
Sergio Mitre-Disgrace
ARod-Disgrace
Knoblauch-Disgrace
I was distinguishing who has more meaning in a Yankee fans' eyes. I'm sure if George Kottaras was caught using PED's and Pedroia was caught on the same day....no one would give a shit about Kottaras.
I'm glad to you have guys back and hosting the blog. No shortage of stories in the last couple of days, eh?
Troll debating is energy-sucking. and it's raining...again.
I know it sucks that you saw the only two losing games in that series...bummer! I have to say that I don't really mind the loss on JoS1 night. If they'd won it'd been awesome, but I was thrilled to have met those of you I met--what a swell bunch of folk!--and that outweighed the loss (and the lameness of the loss) for me.
SoSock noted that there was no surprises in meeting people...that we fit comfortably with our online personas. I agree and I'm glad for that. Nothing like finding out the people you think you might like are lame (hmmm...athletes, anyone?).
Trade deadline...dum de dum dum...
I was thrilled to have met those of you I met--what a swell bunch of folk!--and that outweighed the loss (and the lameness of the loss) for me.
ME TOO. Absolutely. I'm glad you said that so I could clarify too.
SoSock noted that there was no surprises in meeting people...that we fit comfortably with our online personas. I agree and I'm glad for that.
Yes, definitely. I didn't even have to be introduced to most people - I knew right away who everyone was!
Nick, did Emma have fun? I was really happy you brought her.
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