September 11, 2006

This Post Has Absolutely Nothing To Do With The Boston Red Sox #1

Back in 2003 and 2004, I posted political news/opinions on this blog. When I stopped, many readers told me they were sad to see them go; others rejoiced.

See comments for a non-baseball post. ... Or not.

97 comments:

redsock said...

For the 5th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, I wrote something for Laura's blog.

Berserker said...

I hate it. I hate everyting about this day. I wish we could have one day without arguing about politics or viewpoints.

None of the people who died 5 years ago wasted their last moments on hatred, revenge, politics, or anything else but love for their families.

I would like to see this day go by with people remembering the victims and putting the ugliness of the world aside for 24 hours.

L-girl said...

Berserker: So go do it. Who's stopping you?

No one is arguing here. Allan pointed out a post, is all. No one made you read it.

redsock said...

Just so you know, I'm going to have an itchy delete finger on comments here.

No one told you to read the fucking post. It's hidden enough that those people who don't want anything non-baseball from me could avoid it. That was intentional.

You don't want to argue about it? Then don't post a comment.

All I'll say is: Finding out what happened that day is one of the best things we can do for the people who were killed.

Gutch220 said...

Has anyone ever seen the "Loose Change" version 2 video about the conspiracy theories of 9/11. Its pretty interesting. There are some holes in it but I thought it was way better than Farenheit 9/11. It was very intriguing (Sp?). I highly recommend it if you haven't already seen it. Its about 1.5 Hours so set aside some time. Look for it on YouTube, search for "Loose Change".

Anyone?......

on 9/11/2001 I was actually fishing near the Atlantic Highlands near Statin Island. I was pretty far away from the scene but I could see everything. It was insane. I actually felt pretty safe on the water though in a large boat.

redsock said...

I think there are three versions of LC now (or the 3rd one is on the way). The success of that film is quite amazing.

There are problems with it, but there are some nuggets mixed in among the manure. (I've noticed that many debunking sites devoted to it have sprung up, which is interesting.)

The problem with LC and all the other videos is you have to do a shitload of other research to figure how what's what.

...

We were all the way at the other end of Manhattan, at home. The next day, we were able to go down as far as 14th Street.

We were in New York last week and I'm still amazed that the buildings aren't there. It's a very strange feeling, like, "how can that be?"

Jere said...

"None of the people who died 5 years ago wasted their last moments on hatred,"

The only hatred here is coming from you: "I hate it. I hate everything about this day."

"revenge,"

It's only Bush who wants revenge. Revenge for the way Saddam, who had nothing to do with 9-11, treated his father.

"politics,"

I totally don't see this as being about politics, just common sense.

"or anything else but love for their families"

Allan said it best: "Finding out what happened that day is one of the best things we can do for the people who were killed." If I were killed that day, and if my soul somehow lived on, I'd definitely want my family to try to figure out what happened, and think about how they can help change the world to ensure horrible things like that never happen again. And these yearly moments of remebrance seem so contrived. Remember what happened all the time, not just at a specific time when cable channels tell you to. Also, people should try giving and caring about others NOT JUST at the end of December or after disaters...

And you wanna talk about wasted moments? bin Laden, whether he was the mastermind or not, is still not captured, and there's still a huge hole down in Lower Manhattan.

Allan, I'm glad you linked to your great post over at L's site, and I of course vote for it to go up on this site, but, you know, I know this isn't an election.

redsock said...

I know this isn't an election.

Nope. It's a dictatorship.

...

Jere, I'll bet this post brings my troll out of hiding tonight. He'll fume that it's merely the next step in my nefarious plan to brainwash all of you and get you to move to Canada.

Now there's a conspiracy!

Gutch220 said...

I hope we get Bin Ladin soon before he dies naturally.

The Couch Potato said...

Berserker: If you think that those who died on 9/11 felt only love for their families, you are not thinking realistically. Listen to the 911 tapes - the fear and hysteria are apparent. Nobody deserves to die in such a state of terror. That some victims had the presence of mind to call loved ones is certainly admirable but I'm betting that most didn't. The government & its flunky media have just played that aspect up.

We need to talk about this. We need to find out what happened. I agree with what others said: it really is the most appropriate way to give honor to the dead.

Redsock - great post. Thanks for enlightening me today. :-)

Jere said...

Re: the troll: I saved one of his comments from before you deleted it. I should sell bootleg copies out behind the blog:)

And Berserker, I also want to add that I'm not accusing you of being some kind of hatemonger, just trying to point out that you brought up hatrid; Allan's post was not hateful in any way, it was the opposite.

redsock said...

Re: the troll: I saved one of his comments from before you deleted it. I should sell bootleg copies out behind the blog :)

ahhhh, but i can release the box set! (plus some "unreleased" posts to laura's blog!!)

or maybe we can swap them like baseball cards. i'll give you two "move to canada like your mentor" for one "isreal, a country with real balls!"

redsock said...

seriously, thanks for the kind words.

all i wish is for people to educate themselves and decide for themselves what to believe from knowledge, not ignorance.

i can't tell you "what happened", but i can sure as shit tell you in which areas we should be pushing to get straight answers. the military non-response/war games issue is perhaps #1.

L-girl said...

Jere: thank you. What a wonderful comment.

If anyone wants to read yet another friggin "what I did that day" post, I wrote about our experience on 9/12/2001. A wmtc reader once asked me about it, so I posted it. I can direct you if you're interested, or else search the blog for "September 12, 2001".

I hope we get Bin Ladin soon before he dies naturally.

I hope we get Bush and Cheny before they die naturally.

L-girl said...

Couch Potato: thank you. I hadn't gotten that far when I started typing to thank Jere. :)

This blog has a very intelligent readership.

L-girl said...

I of course vote for it to go up on this site, but, you know, I know this isn't an election.

I vote the same way, always have. I may have stalled the demise of the political JoS for a bit, with all my whining and cajoling, but in the end, I was overruled.

So now he hangs around wmtc trying to take over. ;-)

redsock said...

I hope we get Bush and Cheny before they die naturally.

Good one! Throw all three long-time business partners in the same cell.

So now he hangs around wmtc trying to take over. ;-)

Just a few days ago, you were saying I never comment. Hmmm. ... You must mean my nagging about getting a weekly "column".

Berserker said...

I guess the only opinion I am allowed to post has to be in lock step with the host...

Get mad at me if you want, I just have a different feeling on what this day should represent. I am in NY. In a tall building. The 2nd plane flew over my head. I, as am sure at least one of the other readers here, lost someone that day. I am hypersensitive on the subject, please forgive me. I do tend to get irrational on the topic. I get angry when I see movies come out about it. Flight 93 and the ilk. I view it as making money on the dead, and I get more than a little angry.

There was nothing in your initial post that botherd me, but it naturaly ended up with wild conspiracy theories about missiles and missing planes.

I wish it could wait until September 12th is all. Sorry if I take it too personally. Baseball is like an escape for me. To me it's pure. It's the only fair sport left in the world. 27 outs. Can't take a knee on the mound in the 8th and let the clock run out. Can't foul the other team until the time expires. Every team gets a chance to win. Fairness. I love that about it. It's my escape. Sorry for the rant. I love the blog, and I was sorry to see it go another way.

Berserker said...

Redsock: Your intital post wasn't the problem I am referring to. It is the inevitable comments by the crazys that get to me, and the timing. People's hatred against Bush, hatred against Clinton, make them see and say crazy things. I wish it would stop for a day. I just came through a door I wasn't looking for it to. My fault for reading it.

redsock said...

I guess the only opinion I am allowed to post has to be in lock step with the host...

Awwwww, boo fucking hoo!

There plenty of people here who don't agree with me. I don't care. They can post. I probably don't agree with them.

Shit, I post a fucking link -- a LINK, not the actual post, which I considered putting in the comment -- but a fucking goddamn link -- and suddenly the blog is "going another way".

Jesus.

Missles? Missing planes?

Where did I fucking mention missles and missing fucking planes? Where? Huh? Show me fucking where!

You can't, because I didn't mention them anyfuckingwhere. You are making shit up!

So yeah, if a little blue link bothers you that much, buh-bye. It clearly was only a matter of time -- something else from me would have sent you off eventually.

redsock said...

Great. I lash out and now you back off. Jeez.

Listen.

I only linked to the post because there are people who read this blog who know where I stand politically and don't care to read it on a Red Sox site. I think I did that by the post's title and my little explanation before the link.

But I did want to make the progressive readers aware that it existed.

It is the inevitable comments by the crazys that get to me, and the timing.

Me too, but there aren't any comments by crazies here. I'd delete them if there were, and there hasn't been even one.

People's hatred against Bush, hatred against Clinton

I hate 'em both, so ...

I worked in WTC 1 for three years. I worked with people who were there in 1993 and I'm sure some of my former co-workers were there in 2001. The company I worked for lost only one employee person (they were about 30 floors below the first crash) -- and as far as I know, I knew no one who suffered any injury or death.

I'm sorry if I touched a nerve. Please know that I'm incensed at the way 9/11 has been used by both parties and all I want is for a real investigation to find out what truly happened.

I assume almost every one would like that. And whatever comes from that investigation, so be it.

L-girl said...

Baseball is like an escape for me.

I'd bet everyone who reads this blog feels the same way.

I was sorry to see it go another way.

It was one post - and it wasn't even on this blog!! It was an ANOTHER blog!! AND you were warned!!!!

My fault for reading it.

Finally, something intelligent comes out of this person's keyboard.

Wild conspiracy theories. Yeah. Go back to your little bubble where everything is explained by CNN, and we can honour the "heroes" by putting magnets on our SUVs.

***

Nice to see Allan lose it for a change. I always think he is far too nice to people who whine about politics on this blog.

L-girl said...

Great. I lash out and now you back off. Jeez.

Oh, now we're nicey-nice again? You are too damn nice. Bet you never thought anyone would accuse you of that.

redsock said...

Nice to see Allan lose it for a change. I always think he is far too nice to people who whine about politics on this blog.

Nice to see Allan loose it for a change. ... Dismissed as coincedence?

L-girl said...

I guess the only opinion I am allowed to post has to be in lock step with the host...

Can I please have a dollar for every time a disgruntled reader says this?

redsock said...

Berserker said
I am in NY. In a tall building. The 2nd plane flew over my head.

The second plane approached the WTC by way of New Jersey. It was over NJ for all of its last (approximately) 15 minutes of flight. At 9:00, three minutes before impact, it was still at 18,000 feet.

It did not fly over Manhattan at all except about one second before it crashed (probably over the Winter Garden/Battery Park City).

9casey said...

I have a friend who lost a son on that day . And to this day it has not been about anything accept a tragedy that took his son .

It was an event that took a father away from his son too early.

He chooses to let his son name live on through scholarships and fond memories.

and redsock if you want the the name to verify i will give it to you privately.

suzy lux said...

All I'll say is: Finding out what happened that day is one of the best things we can do for the people who were killed.

exactly. and for humanity in general.

9/11 is like the new 'enlightenment'. a foundation for a new world order.

L-girl said...

suzy lux: excellent. so chilling - so true.

****

Most of us who were in NYC or the area at the time know someone who lost someone. My niece went to school with kids whose parents didn't come home from work, a co-worker's uncle was a window-washer working on the outside of one of the towers, a friend's family had 3 firefighters in the family, another friend's babysitter was trapped under a car while ash piled up around her... on and on and on.

No one I know was more than two degrees of separation from the event.

I don't think anyone needs names.

The day can be anything to anyone. We still deserve and need to know the truth.

Jason said...

I'd love to see everything re: 9/11 come out, but can we honestly expect that to happen? It seems so exhaustingly futile to me to expect anything remotely resembling the truth to surface... I would much rather we spend our time and energy researching foreign policy that won't engender a rabid hatred of this country.

9casey said...

What do you think the truth is ?

And 2 degrees is a lot when it's life and death...


A New World Order.....??

Even if the truth is everything some of you want it to be , what does it change...

Do people who have lost love ones sleep better or worse.


You will never know the truth.

redsock said...

I would much rather we spend our time and energy researching foreign policy that won't engender a rabid hatred of this country.

I think the two are very much connected.

L-girl said...

And 2 degrees is a lot when it's life and death...

That's the first intelligent thing I've ever read from you.

I've been in that 2 degrees. No, I've been in that half-a-degree. I know what that difference means.

Maybe it's because I've survived a brush with death that I know how much the truth means. What justice would mean. I'd recognize it if I saw it.

Do people who have lost love ones sleep better or worse.

Many of them would sleep better. Much, much better. That's why so many of them have worked so hard, and continue to work, to reject the lies and dig away at the truth. The 9/11 Truth Movement was started by 9/11 widows. They feel they deserve the truth, and I agree with them.

For those that feel otherwise, who would rather not know, that's their choice.

But the fact is, this happened in my city and the country of my birth, and I want to know what happened. If you don't want to know, go stick your head in the sand. That's your choice, too.

L-girl said...

Jason, I feel the same way. Everyone works for justice in her/his own way. The 9/11 Truth people feel they are working towards a greater good, also. There are many paths - they all work together.

Jason said...

Fair enough, L-Girl, I may have overstated my feelings on the subject. It can be frustrating how fractured the left is, especially when facing such an enormously organized outfit (the Government? the Dems/Reps?)

L-girl said...

Jason, I totally, totally understand. I used to say the exact same thing to Allan all the time - what good does that do, we'll never know, it's a distraction from the real issues... I guess I just had an epiphany about it, and now see the search for truth about 9/11 as part of the peace & justice movement in general. It's not my focus at all, but I now understand why it's important.

Doesn't mean you have to, of course. :) I just wanted to say that we're really in the same boat.

Jason said...

I'm totally with you on that...

I think a lot about all these movements that have similar threads, and how everyone suddenly realized that how f-ing much power would suddenly be transferred... The Seattle demonstrations were like that, with Labor and Femminists and Enivronmentalists etc. etc. all realizing for a shirt time that they shared many of the same goals. Can you imagine if that tide had kept building?!?

But as it stands now, things are fractious, and I tend to worry about the collective attention span required to work on all 4,506 items on the "left" agenda (and the attention span of those we're attempting to inform)...

[Which doesn't mean I should slag off on an excellent piece (not my intention), but should rather work on making those interconnections more obvious]

Gutch220 said...

I can't read anymore rhetoric/threads/post/opinions/rights/wrongs/could've/should've/good/bad/and so on about 9/11 and all everything that goes along with it. It's endless banter that gets everybody nowhere. So many threads on so many sites, and every news station, and all of the radio shows all repeat themselves over and over again. I'm just sick of it.
*As I'm typing this the Yankees take an 8-5 lead over the O's*
I'm sick of all the bipartisan politics using different aspects of the "war on terror" for their own political gain.
I'm sick of the president reading the same speach written by somebody else. It seems like nothing gets done, and everybody drags their politically correct feet. I'm done with caring about this war, the U.S. position in the world, or what other countries think, I'm just done with caring. Everything seems pointless. nothing matters. Everyone should just stop giving a fuck. I'm done

Jason said...

If there is one thing we can each do to improve the world we live in, our own lives and the lives of those around us and around the world, and to prevent humanity from needlessly suffering another moment, it would clearly be "just stop giving a fuck." Or it could be that other thing that I'm forgetting at the moment.

Gutch220 said...

^no. it's "just stop giving a fuck" about anything. Just live your life, and stop worrying about how others live theirs. It's that easy. 'sounds good on paper doesn't it?

Gutch220 said...

I'm all out of care

Jere said...

Gutch: if that "let's stop caring" speech was supposed to be sarcasm, well, perfect. But I don't think it was. (And now I know it wasn't, since you've already clarified since I started typing this.)

Back to what Berserker said: "I get angry when I see movies come out about it. Flight 93 and the ilk. I view it as making money on the dead, and I get more than a little angry."

What about all the flags and bumper stickers? That's making money off the dead, too.

redsock said...

gutch, i would say that's what "they" would love for you to do.

stop paying attention, stop asking questions, stop voting, stop everything -- so they can do their murderous work in peace.

don't forget, though, that you may not care -- that is your choice -- but everything "they" (that's both parties) do will affect you in one way or the other.

TeeSee said...

Redsock,

I've been aware of your worldviews (by checking Laura's blog in the past), and have felt nothing but admiration for your ability to have a Red Sox blog where you rarely even hint at politics -- something which clouds virtually everything I do and think every day. It's a true blog that chronicles the frustration of our "Break your Heart" Sox.

Now that I read your other posting, and understand you are part of the 911-truth movement, I only express further admiration at your ability to separate your love of the Sox and your love of my country.

Thank you for the link. It is interesting reading.

Now, back to the fantasy bums on the baseball field -- thinking about the real ones that so pervade our political and media outlets is depressing.

Berserker said...

Wow.

Guess I said the wrong things. I can see how you would all get so mad. Wait a minute... no I can't. I can't fucking see it at all.

Did I cry about having a difference of oppinion?
L-girl:Can I please have a dollar for every time a disgruntled reader says this?
Bite me! Was I addressing this to the moderator? No. It goes out to the group, none of which were of my view.

Maybe I over-reacted but how many other threads have 99% aggreement? Holy Crap!! If I said the Yankees rule I couldn't get this much of a united front against it.

Red sock: I Never said you claimed things about missiles and planes. If you read my post, you will see that I refer to the crazys that jump on your initial post.

All I did was express my view. What a horror. I have done it twice. Express my view that is. Both times from my own experience. Not from second hand, solely from things that I have witnessed myself. Both times I have been assailed as a liar(Wakefield in clubhouse). Whatever. I was there.

I enjoyed the blog and thought it would be nice to contribute. Some of you are so intent on accuracy, yet you twist around what I wrote.

Must be time for me to go back to a reader alone and just enjoy the Sox stuff. Best of luck everyone.

The waaaambulence is here to take me away.

Berserker said...

Huh? ok... Not sure who you're writing to, but this crappy day is almost over. Unfortunately the world will be that same when I get up in the morning. Maybe a little worse. Maybe my cat will pee in my cheerios.

Go Sox.

Jere said...

Oh you gotta leave the idiot Yankee fan making a fool of himself up there!

Okay, well, Yankee fan, if you're still reading, You aren't a Sox fan, so you don't get to have opinions about the Red Sox, right?

redsock said...

bloodyyank78, i was going to respond to your second post, but you blew it with the first one. (is that you, zeke?)

... oh hell, i'll respond: of course, i had issues with the usa before 2000. are you saying it was perfect before then? when CLINTON was running things? ... moran.

...

Red sock: I Never said you claimed things about missiles and planes. If you read my post, you will see that I refer to the crazys that jump on your initial post.

you wrote:

There was nothing in your initial post that botherd me, but it naturaly ended up with wild conspiracy theories about missiles and missing planes.

Maybe that's what you meant, but that's not what you wrote ("it" clearly = my initial post).

L-girl said...

Bite me!

You should be so lucky.

redsock said...

teesee, thank you. ... i do hint at it, if you recall some of my recent comments about mr. timlin.

...

sorry, jere, shitheads who lead with insults will not get the satisfaction of staying.

now: did you save those comments or do you need me to email them to you? :>)

L-girl said...

Gutch, you seem to confuse the blather of the mainstream media and elected (with or without quotes) officials with activism - people's movements.

"endless banter that gets everybody nowhere" "every news station, and all of the radio shows all repeat themselves over and over again. I'm just sick of it."

You should be sick of that. It's sickening.

But real people, banding together to try to alleviate some of the world's suffering - that, you should never be sick of.

We all get burnt out, and we all need a break sometimes. (That's one of the beautiful things baseball gives us.) But trying to make the world a slightly better place - trying to reclaim the country - is not a waste of time. It's what gives our lives meaning.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, and if you find it more convenient to not give a fuck, then so be it. As Allan said, you're doing exactly what the rulers of this country want.

I include all rulers in that statement, by the way, past and present.

L-girl said...

I think a lot about all these movements that have similar threads, and how everyone suddenly realized that how f-ing much power would suddenly be transferred... The Seattle demonstrations were like that, with Labor and Femminists and Enivronmentalists etc. etc. all realizing for a shirt time that they shared many of the same goals. Can you imagine if that tide had kept building?!?

Now is the time, if ever there was one.

L-girl said...

teesee, thank you. ... i do hint at it, if you recall some of my recent comments about mr. timlin.

But not enough!!!! :)

Who is this Teesee, I wonder, who sometimes reads wmtc? I wonder how many readers we share. More than 3? 5, maybe?

Jere said...

Actually, I only saw bloodyank's first post. (It's on my clipboard now! haha). But I'm pretty sure he's not Zeke. In fact, I'm almost positive. I know bloodyank from my site, and I think the writing styles are way too different.

redsock said...

jere: he toned it down on post #2, so you got the good one.

...

i can't help but notice that no one -- not a regular commenter or anyone who decided to open a blogger account -- has said anything to discredit, challenge or counter the stuff i wrote in my post.

Jack Marshall said...

Redsock: It's your blog, and you have every right to periodically or constantly plug your posts elsewhere, the love of your life's blog, or anything else. And I think you used extreme good taste and fairness in the manner in which you did it...with a link and a warning. Class all the way.
I'm sure you have discerned that we are not exactly on the same political page, but I was both sad and glad to read your post...sad, because there is something wrong in the world when a smart and perceptive guy like you can become convinced that the elected leaders of the country of his birth are all certified evil, psycho-madman megalomaniacs right out of a James Bond novel. Glad, because it helped me know you a little better, understand why you moved to Canada (If I believed that the government could or would be involved in intentionally allowing a terrorist attack to kill 3,000 Americans, I'd move to Canada TONIGHT,) and where the anger comes from that occasionally peaks into your otherwise well-moderated posts. I know something about other U.S. conspiracy lore, from the Lincoln assassination on, and they all have had honorable, intelligent and, ultimately dead-wrong advocates as well. I'm going to have to give a lot of thought to why so many people think this way now, because that points to a dangerous crisis of trust. If we can't trust each other, we can't work together, we can’t teach each other, we can’t help each other…in short, we’re fucked. It's a real threat that has to be dealt with, and frankly, is worth a lot more time than trying to resolve the inconsistencies in a complex event like 9/11. Trust me on this one: that’s a futile exercise.

redsock said...

jack, i figured you stayed out of this one yesterday on purpose. you were kind of conspicously absent, at least to me.

there is something wrong in the world when a smart and perceptive guy like you can become convinced that the elected leaders of the country of his birth are all certified evil, psycho-madman megalomaniacs

first, i take issue with "elected". second, i would not hazard a guess as to who was involved -- but i'll bet we don't know the names of most of them.

your otherwise well-moderated posts.

err, thanks.

I know something about other U.S. conspiracy lore, from the Lincoln assassination on, and they all have had honorable, intelligent and, ultimately dead-wrong advocates as well.

I know very little about the lincoln assassination, but I know you know that many events derided as "wacko conspiracies" have turned out to be true years down the road (Watergate and Iran-Contra to name two big ones in my lifetime).

I'm going to have to give a lot of thought to why so many people think this way now

ummm, because our leaders are "certified evil, psycho-madman megalomaniacs"? ... just a guess.

another big reason is that these "leaders" give a radically different explanation every time they are asked.

if your teenaged son or daughter came home late and kept revising his/her story of what happened every time you asked, you might get the impression you were being told something less than the complete truth.

(If I believed that the government could or would be involved in intentionally allowing a terrorist attack to kill 3,000 Americans, I'd move to Canada TONIGHT,)

after a sober examiantion of everything we have been told for the past five years -- and i mean the words spoken by various government officials and only those words -- "intentionally allowing a terrorist attack to kill 3,000 Americans" is the kindest verdict you could render.

also, the us government has intentionally "killed" almost 3,000 other Americans in the middle east by sending them to invade and occupy two countries.

and just so we're clear, only one party is currently in power, but i believe almost all members of both parties are morally bankrupt, and will never be able to wash the blood off their hands.

redsock said...

of course, in addition to watergate and iran-contra, there was also stuff like the tuskegee syphilis study and the military's admission, years after the fact, that it tested chemical weapons on unsuspecting americans.

It was in the 1950s and America was in the height of the Cold War. ...

The U.S. government was preparing for germ warfare by secretly spraying biological agents on its own citizens. The tests were conducted in 239 cities, including one of Oklahoma's most prominent communities.


that came to light in 2003. the year before, the department of defense admitted that the US had sprayed more than 4,000 sailors in Vietnam with various substances, including sarin, from 1964-68.

thereby giving new meaning to "he gassed his own people".

Jack Marshall said...

Redsock: I admire your passion and Laura's, and know your concern is coming from good motives. Maybe some day we can get together when I'm in Canada or you're in DC (like when the Sox play the O's) and have a nice, civilized, up-all-night argument about this stuff...I have a lot of experience at it, as do you. And believe it or not, I have an open mind. But this is not the place, though you alluded to many matters that tempt me sorely.

Speaking of conspiracy theories, by the way, my theater company just opened "MacBird!," the 1967 political satire and anti-war play that suggests that LBJ had JFK killed. It's the first professional production in 38 years. So conspiracy is on my mind too...except I don't believe the theory I'm working with at the moment.

L-girl said...

my theater company

Wow! We have more in common than I thought.

A Sox/Jays or Sox/O's game would be great. And if we get tired of arguing about politics, we can always talk about dogs.

redsock said...

A game at Skydome sounds good. With any luck, it'll be a Papelbon start!

And I do have an email address if temptation gets the best of you.

Gutch220 said...

Oh you gotta leave the idiot Yankee fan making a fool of himself up there!

Okay, well, Yankee fan, if you're still reading, You aren't a Sox fan, so you don't get to have opinions about the Red Sox, right?

Congradulations, that's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while, ESPECIALLY the second part. That's like saying you can't have an opinion on 9/11 because you don't live in NYC. Well done in contradicting your self in one post.

....anyway, after thinking about it I think I've made sense of some things. EVERYBODY has strong opinions about the whole 9/11 thing, the war, the current geopolitical climate (I've been waiting all day to say that), and so on. And if somebody disagrees with another persons opinion, they take it personally due to the strong feeling and complexity of the state of the world. We can't take somebodies difference in opinion personally because we basically all want the same thing; peace, no terrorism, no war, stability, and we don't even know it.

Also, I don't think placing 100% of the blame on Bush is fair (and I don't support Bush, nor am I a republican (or democrat for that matter)). 9/11 was being planned way before Bush even got elected, and I think we will be fighting terrorism far after the next president leaves office. Blindly speculating, and constantly pointing the finger to blame won't get us anywhere. I also think that stabilizing the middle east for the long term might mean having an unstable region in the short term.

............. That being said, I honestly believe that in our lifetime we will see WW3, which sucks. In my opinion WWW3 will make WW2 look like WW1. :)

That's my rant. If you would like to subscribe to my news letter please call 1-800-Mattress, leave off the last "S" for shut the fuck up. j/k

Jere said...

"And I think you used extreme good taste and fairness in the manner in which you did it...with a link and a warning. Class all the way."

I don't see how it would've shown a lack of class had he just posted his article on the main page of this blog, with no warning.

????


Gutch:
I was referring to a comment that was deleted in which someone told Allan he wasn't allowed to have an opinion about the US because he moved away. Hence the "right?" at the end. I was mocking him.


Sincerely,
The Jere Theatre Company

Jack Marshall said...

Jere: I didn't say that it would have shown a lack of class to just post it...as I said, it's his blog. It showed an abundance of class to do it the way he did it, being concerned about his readers' sensitivities when he had no obligation to do so. He knows many people come here to get away from the horrors of life beyond the Green Monster, and would be jarred by a political post.

Praising someone for doing something good is NOT the same thing as condemning a person who doesn't do it.

L-girl said...

Gutch, NO ONE here places 100% of the blame on Bush. In fact, the owner of this blog and his esteemed partner-in-crime think Bush is nothing but a figurehead, and likely knows nothing and did less.

Also, there is no "blind speculating" going on. Allan has spent years researching this stuff. Try to debate him on it and you'll find out how much he knows.

We can't take somebodies difference in opinion personally because we basically all want the same thing; peace, no terrorism, no war, stability, and we don't even know it.

BULLSHIT. Many people do not want peace. Many people want war, as long as other people do the dying. If everyone wanted peace, Gutch, THERE'D BE NO WAR.

Gutch220 said...

I'm not referring to the people here when I say those things. I'm speaking in general.

And who can you say wants war? unless you know them personally, how do you know what they want?

L-girl said...

And who can you say wants war? unless you know them personally, how do you know what they want?

If people make public statements supporting a war, then I think it's safe to say they want the war.

Gutch220 said...

Supporting the war effort, and wanting war are two different things. I'm sure the soldiers over there work hard to do what they can but I'm pretty sure they wish that there was no need for a war. You have to see that difference, don't you?

Jere said...

The soldiers are just doing what they're told.

However, I am quite certain some of them enjoy killing people.

9casey said...

I am quite certain some of them enjoy killing people.

WOW! that's quite a statement......

Prefacing it by saying they are doing what they are told.......

Then follow it up with oh yeah but I bet they enjoy it ....I myself would never assume to know how a soldier truly feels its presumptious and ignorant.

That's like the arguement of the boy being molested by his woman teacher.......

Jere said...

You're full of shit, man. I'm done talking to you. Do you think when people read these things, they say, Boy that 9Casey guy sure is smart? You miss the point of what people are saying consistently. I shouldn't have to write something to you and then explain it in the next comment.

Jere said...

From the Seattle Times:

"I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who had killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."

That's from 2 seconds of googling.

9casey said...

You have your view.


No I don't think people think hey he's smart I get called an idiot on this blog everyday.

Dismiss me because of my opinion of your comment and I'm the narrow-minded one....

redsock said...

let's not forget the planned (one week ahead of time) rape and burning of Abeer Qasim Hamzaa, a 14-year-old iraqi girl, and the murder of three other members of her family.

what color ribbon do i buy for that?

9casey said...

I am not trying to say they are all good people..

I have never been in war or even shot a gun....... ....I don't know how these people think....I was brought up a different way.. I am going to give someone the benefit of the doubt before I judge..There are stories out there of good soldiers who are away from their families fighting a war some of them don't believe in..I am just not going to generalize and say some enjoy it.....I have never walked even a second in their shoes...I can't lump a thousand bad guys with 30,000 good and say its all bad that helps no one...

These guys come home and ,I know we all know someone who has been in Iraq or Afghanaistan or even Vietnam....they don't want to talk about it.....I can't give David Ortiz the benefit of the doubt and say he was misquoted and on the other hand believe all the bad crap that is written about our soldiers......I will never know what it is like to be in Iraq and comment on it like I was. When it comes to war , IN MY VIEW , I can not comment good or bad ..because its something I hope I will never have to be a part of.......Wars Suck wheter they are right or wrong..That is just my opinion...You can have your views and I will respect them I ask for the same of mine...

Jere said...

What you're missing is that NO ONE SAID that ALL soldiers like killing. Me saying that there is documented evidence of SOME soldiers (who knows what the percentage is? Let's hope it's very, very low) who admit to enjoying it is not my opinion, it's the truth.

When gutch said "I'm pretty sure they wish that there was no need for a war," I AGREED with him by saying they're just doing what they're told. The point of me saying that was that no one was talking about the soldiers wanting war, just the people who make the wars wanting it. Then I went onto say that some soldiers DO like killing, to counter the fact that he was saying that NO ONE wants war (meaning soldiers, since, like I said, he missed the point that we were talking about warmongers, not pawns.)

L-girl said...

Supporting the war effort, and wanting war are two different things. I'm sure the soldiers over there work hard to do what they can but I'm pretty sure they wish that there was no need for a war. You have to see that difference, don't you?

I see the difference, and disagree with you. Many people want war. Many people love war. That, to me, is blatantly obvious and easy to see by looking around you.

I'm not talking about soldiers. Your original comment said nothing about soldiers - it said "everyone wants the same thing ... peace".

Re "supporting the war effort" in the US, that seems to mean paying your taxes (which is involuntary), putting a sticker on your car, and not protesting. How do civilians "support the war effort"? By not questioning the men who start the wars?

Re "need for war", if there is anyone in the US who still believes there is a "need" to invade, destroy and occupy Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran or any other country, they are ignorant, gullible sheep. And I apologize to sheep, as sheep are better and smarter than those people.

L-girl said...

Dismiss me because of my opinion of your comment and I'm the narrow-minded one....

9Casey, people here don't dismiss you because of your opinion. They dismiss you because you seem not to read carefully, then respond to something other than what the person wrote. It's highly frustrating.

If you do it on purpose, you're not interested in having a rational discussion. If you do it by accident, slow down and read more carefully, it would go a long way.

Some unsolicited advice from your resident man-basher.

Jere said...

"knows nothing and did less"--The George W Bush Story.

9casey said...

let's not forget the planned (one week ahead of time) rape and burning of Abeer Qasim Hamzaa, a 14-year-old iraqi girl, and the murder of three other members of her family.


Maybe I read that article wrong but it says the girl is between 15- 20 years old........I also do not know forensic science that well but Is it possible to know if a girl who has been burned , that she has also been raped?

redsock said...

while it doesn't make the crime any less barbaric if she was 20, official documents were released that show her exact birth date. they can be found with some online searching.

as i understand it, several of the men involved confessed.

L-girl said...

Her face was burned beyond recognition. Much of her body was not, and her body bore all the tell-tale scars of gang rape.

Several soldiers confessed to raping her, holding her while others raped her, and to knowing that her body had been burned in an attempt to hide it.

I'm not sure if Allan said this, but her parents and baby brother were murdered in an attempt to cover up the crime.

No one is saying all soldiers do this. I see most of the armed forces in this war as victims. However, to say that they would prefer peace or don't like killing is quite a stretch.

Again, I also repeat that when Gutch said (copying here) "we basically all want the same thing; peace, no terrorism, no war, stability, and we don't even know it" he didn't mention soldiers, he seemed to be (and I believe he was) referring to civilians, hence his use of the word "we". If he meant soldiers, who is the "we"?

We do NOT all want the same things. That should be pretty fucking obvious.

L-girl said...

Maybe I read that article wrong but it says the girl is between 15- 20 years old........

You read it incompletely, or possibly the article was not updated.

The US Army originally said the victim was a 20-year-old woman, in an attempt to make the crime look less heinous. It was later established, using the girl's official identity papers, that she was 14 years old.

Fourteen.

This is what war does to many men. I'd bet anything not none of those men would have committed a crime like this in the US against American women. In war, it's open season.

There is so much evidence documenting this in all wars throughout history, and many of us are so familiar with the evidence, that 9Casey, you'd do well to believe it.

Oh yeah, we all want the same things. Those men who committed that heinous crime and me, we want the same things. Sure.

redsock said...

is anyone still coming here to read?

i wanted to share a quote. korey rowe, one of the makers of "loose change", admits they left lies in the movie on purpose.

"What I encourage people to do is go out and research it themselves. We don't ever come out and say that everything we say is 100 percent. We know there are errors in the documentary, and we've actually left them in there so that people discredit us and do the research for themselves -- the B52 (remarked to have flown into the Empire State Building), the use of Wikipedia, things like that. We left them in there so people will want to discredit us and go out and research the events yourself and come up with your own conclusions. That's our whole goal, to make Americans think."

korey, i think you are insane.

9casey said...

I just watched that movie.

Is that your theory as well?

If it all happened the way they said, because like you pointed out they admmitted to lies, was it really done for the money?

redsock said...

I just watched that movie.

I have not watched it all the way through, though I know generally their points of view.

Is that your theory as well?

I don't really have a theory. Like I said, I am more more open to raising questions and getting people to realize the strange and contradictory things we've been told (and are still being told).

There are some things that I think are likely to have occurred -- based on dozens bits of information culled from hundreds of news reports -- but I usually don't write about them.

If it all happened the way they said, because like you pointed out they admitted to lies, was it really done for the money?

It's been available for free on the web, so I don't think so.

Why they would knowingly include lies is just beyond bizarre. ... I don't thnk they did that. It seems like they were caught in a bunch of lies and this is their "excuse".

No real respectable historian would write a book, then admit that he threw in 100 lies, and told you to go do the same research to figure how where he was dishonest.

There is more than enough stuff to point to and not lie. It's insane.

L-girl said...

Like I said,

Never assume 9Casey has read anything you've written. Big mistake.

9casey said...

Jesus, not the moviemakers the gov't........Thats what is said in the end of the movie .That they blew up the buildings for gold. I assumed you watched it.sorry.......

L-girl , what did I write for you to write that?

You for some reason you always think I am trying to twist something...I was trying to get redsock point of view on the movie.... Never even once made a comment to his post , except what he wrote, about the lies......




L-girl said...
Like I said,

Never assume 9Casey has read anything you've written. Big mistake.

edsock doesn't even mention that I assumed anything

L-girl said...

L-girl , what did I write for you to write that?

I guess we just have a communication problem. You often seem to respond to something other than what people actually wrote.

I'm sorry to have offended you.

If it all happened the way they said, because like you pointed out they admitted to lies, was it really done for the money?

It's been available for free on the web, so I don't think so.


This was a strange exchange!

9Casey didn't mean they made Loose Change for profit.

He meant (I think) that the filmmakers think *9/11 was committed for profit*, and does Redsock agree. Am I reading that right?

"...it was realy done for the money" - meaning 9/11 was committed for profit. (And I suppose not the long-term profit of war in Iraq?) Is that what Loose Change theorizes??? Very strange. I guess we'll have to see it and judge for ourselves how wacky or sober it is.

9casey said...

Yes I was asking Redsock if he agreed with the theory.

I don't want to give away the end of the movie. In case you watch it , but it wasn't about the profit on the war.

redsock said...

I misunderstood.

Not sure about the gold. Off the top of my head, I remember reading stories about a shitload of gold stored in the WTC complex, but that it was all recovered. (Which could be a lie ...)

I guess I can look at the end of the film online.

9casey said...

I'm sorry to have offended you......No problem

redsock said...

9casey, you haven't offended me at all.

if you get the chance, check out "9/11 - press for truth".

much of it is based on paul thompson's 9/11 timeline. i watched the first hour of it yesterday and was impressed.

it's made for someone who might not be very well-versed in the battle to get a 9/11 investigation off the ground and everything that came out during the various hearings.

and it sticks only to verifible mainstream news reports.

L-girl said...

I'm sorry to have offended you......No problem

9casey, you haven't offended me at all.


9Casey was quoting my apology and then saying no problem to me.

Major communication problems here. :)

9casey said...

Major communication problems here. :)

Only when i'm involved :)

L-girl said...

Major communication problems here. :)

Only when i'm involved :)


That's why people use italics or quotes, to show what they're referring to.

9Casey, I'd like to ask you something personal, and I mean no offense by it in any way, merely a question. How old are you? I hope you'll be honest.

Jere said...

His profile shows 34. And he's a CT guy! Waterbury. Nice.