We're out with the dogs for the day. SoSH will have snips of, and links to, every single tidbit posted about the Red Sox today (newest Manny stuff is here for now; non-Sox matters are here).
Jayson Stark of ESPN.com quotes "an official" from one of the three teams involved in the rumored Manny Ramirez swap as saying that the odds of a deal are "50-50."
Herald: "Talks between the Red Sox and the Marlins concerning Manny Ramirez gained momentum overnight and this morning but a baseball source with direct knowledge of the talks said this morning that the chances of a deal getting done were "less than 50-50".
Globe: "The person most strongly opposed to trading Ramirez has been owner John W. Henry, who takes the position that the Sox cannot get sufficient value in return for him, and that Ramirez gives the team its best chance of winning."
SoSHer SoxFanSince57: "I still see no real evidence that Manny is performing any differently on the field than he has always done. Separate the words and feeling with his performance and I think people will find that he continues to hit like Manny, continues to have knee and hammy problems as we have come to expect, continues to protect his legs on ground outs by not running a top speed, continues to pose on long fly balls and continues to be a marginal to poor fielder. It is the shit from the FO and the press that have caused people to find a new reason to spin his performance. His on-the-field stuff is basically unchanged. IMO, it is just the media's efforts to get the public to reinterpret Manny's performance that is different."
please manny stay, please manny stay, please manny stay! if he gets traded to the marlins theres going to be a parade in the bronx, and in tampa... and i every other AL city.
Yup---the evil media and the Front Office, who secretly want to LOSE because it will help them make less money and attract fewer fans, sudenly decided to pesecute Manny Ramirez, a perfect citizen of RedSox Nation and selfless teammate who cares only about the team and gives his all on the field, for no reason whatsoever.
Here is more from SoxFanSince57: "I do not fault Manny for wanting out of the option years. There is nothing wrong with wanting out. There is nothing wrong with telling the Sox that he doesn't want to play in Boston beyond this season. What is wrong is not living up to the terms of a contract that he signed. He agreed to be paid 160M over 8 years and for that he agreed to allow the Sox to hold two option years and have the right to decide to exercise those options until November. The Sox have lived up to their part of the deal. They will have paid Manny 160m by the end of the season. ... Manny gave the Sox the right to wait until November to decide how to proceed. It is totally unreasonable for you or Manny to imply that somehow the contract is over 7 1/2 years into it. IMO, players/people who force their way out of their contractual obligations when it suits them are low lifes."
Schilling (how did he stay quiet for so long?: "At the end of the day you're taking the field with a guy who doesn't want to play with you, doesn't want to be there, doesn't want to ... obviously effort-wise is just not there and that's disheartening and disappointing. I would absolutely agree that it's affected this team. I don't question it. I've been around when it did before in '06. These are your teammates and it just makes it hard when every question, you're struggling in a 1-for-14 and grinding your [expletive] off at the plate and every question is about something that you have absolutely no control over..."
Jack: For someone who has criticized the arguing tactics of other posters in the past, for you to so obviously exaggerate someone else's viewpoint all out of proportion and then attack THAT -- an opinion that no one has put forth, one that resides only in your own head -- really takes the cake.
If it is true that we are not going to have him on the team next year (A point a never really believed) then a trade for anything is more vaule than we'll get come next spring.
Here is something nobody is talking about. A new contract for Manny? Is that an option? I personally hope not.
Actually, I really like Schill's perspective on the issue, especially seeing as he was there in 2006 and he's still technically on this team now. He keeps track of things and if he says it's a distraction I'd believe him over anyone in the media.
JWH has been the voice of reason in the past, but he did let Theo walk before he stepped in and made the reconciliation. What I feel the most about this is sad. Is it incumbent on the employee or the employer to start the discussion of what the specific problems are. And where is the agent in this whole scenario? Why isn't he pushing his client to sit down with his employer? I know on the surface that sounds naive, but SOMEONE should be able to step back and look at all the circumstances (like Manny's contract being up, the cost of renewal, his production, replacement players, etc). This is not an indictment, but the media certainly isn't going to do that. Manny won't do it. Theo makes a lot of good moves, but I don't see him doing that either. Just my opinion here, but I think that when someone does that, they'd see that they won't get suitable return value in a trade for Manny - especially if they are buying out his contract.
35 minutes before the deadline, the Red Sox are turning out to be the big losers for the day. Jason Bay has been traded to Tampa, and the Red Sox are nowhere near trading Manny, and they can't trade Brandon Moss for Ron Mahay because Moss needs to be used as Manny insurance, apparently.
"Jack, that is not the other side of this discussion and you damn well know it."
Redsock, I know no other way to categorize the post you reprinted... "...It is the shit from the FO and the press that have caused people to find a new reason to spin his performance. His on-the-field stuff is basically unchanged. IMO, it is just the media's efforts to get the public to reinterpret Manny's performance that is different."
Well, that's it. The deadline's passed, and it looks like Manny's staying.
For the love of God, I hope the fans will get off his back. The last thing this team needs right now is for Manny to get booed because he missed a fly ball or something.
The $60,000 Question, then: what the fuck do they do in the offseason?
Sorry, I don't feel that I am exaggerating based on a lot of what I read here.
Why do you think a poster yesterday asked plaintively, "Why don't they do this to Ortiz?" as if Manny is just a random victim. I keep hearing the front office is trying to run Manny out of town, even it it hurts the team. If they decide that he has to go, it's obviously BECAUSE they believe he's hurting the team. Anyone can disagree with their conclusions or analysis, but to suggest that the FO is out to get Manny as a personal vendetta is bizarre---and I CAN read--that's what I see suggested by more than one poster.
And Fansince57, whose post sparked my sarcasm, definitely embodies that. Nothing changed: everybody just decided out of the blue to villify Manny, he says. That's bullshit, and you have said so, not in so many words, yourself.
And now the $7 million is now said to be included as well.
They pay his salary, they give a bullpen guy, a AAAA outfielder, and Manny, for a LF who is younger than Manny and who doesn't have quite as good of numbers as Manny.
Amazing that it came to this.
No word on any relievers coming to Boston. It doesn't sound like there is any.
As far as this season goes, and forgetting about the cash, it's a net wash. Hansen was going down when Aardsma returned. Moss wasn't going to start in Boston. Bay is close enough to Manny in production that the line-up isn't compromised, and he's a lot younger and signed through next year.
Good job by Theo under terrible pressure. Bravo. And don't forget, this kept Bay from going to Tampa.
A reliever would have been nice. But under the cercumstances, this is as good an outcome as we could hope for.
The Dodgers are kind of pathetic. Their entire philosophy seems to be "get the most famous people available." Nomar, A. Jones, J. Pierre, D Lowe, J. Schmidt, J. Torre, M. Ramirez. I guess it is sort of working. They might win the division this year.
Manny and Nomar can hang out and bitch about the Boston media and front office. To Joe Torre.
I've wanted Jason Bay since his awesome years in 05 and 06. Didn't think it would happen this way.
Man, imagine if in 2003, I would have told you that in 5 years the Red Sox would have two world series rings, and that Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe, and Nomar would be on the Dodgers being managed with Joe Torre.
i will miss manny. alot. loved the bat and some of the antics. some of them.
but,
i think there is a great upside to bay. he has some speed (15 - 20 stolen base potential is not a stretch), and he has some pop (3o+ hr potential). he had an off year last year, but look at the team around him. this year, the pirates have been better offensively and bays numbers have improved. he looks to be a strong outfielder with no baggage.
who did we lose besides manny? a replacement outfielder that we have not much use for (with coco and youk as an extra if needed) and a shaky relief pitcher that i cover my eyes when he's on the mound. hansen's got great stuff, but it's not consistent and you need consistency in the bullpen.
it seems strange that the sox would also have to fork over the $7 mil. i understood it with the marlins, but the dodgers are a big market club. maybe we'll know more soon.
Also, Bay is a good fielder and baserunner, and I think the difference in batting skill (which isn't that much) should be made up. Plus it gives us 13 million to play with next year. Maybe we can get CC or Ben Sheets.
A caution about Bay...Coco Crisp. When he came over after his two years in Cleveland, it looked like we were getting a younger Johnny Damon on the upswing while Damon was declining. Damon did decline, but he's still much better than Coco, who has proven to be a fraud offensively.
Bay having a great year is still a little worse than Manny on the downswing. I won't miss all Manny's crap, and I'm actually more optimistic about the team's chances of righting itself now. But he was the best right-handed batter I've ever seen in a Sox uniform, and I suspect that won't change during my lifetime. And he got Boston its championship as much as anyone.
absolutely right about coco. bay is going from a city with no media to a city where media is king. we won't know how he will react until he takes the field. he steps into a high pressure situation (filling manny's shoes, pennant race, etc.)...hopefully the media will give him a break if he struggles initially.
one difference from coco to bay is that bay is almost 30, he's not a rookie or just coming into his game. i would consider him a proven talent entering veteran status.
I agree...he's a better bet. And if I'm wrong about line-ups making any difference in how you perform, he'll certainly benefit from the move that way too. If Ellsbury can come out of his funk, an eventual line-up of LBJ, Pedroia, Ortiz, Bay, Lowell, Drew, Youk, Lowrie and Tek (that's how I'd put them---we'll never see it, of course)is as good as anybody's. Still.
Best of all, I won't have to keep fighting with Laura over Manny. Let's just hope she doesn't become a Dodger fan.
lbj f*** yeah tizzle jay-bay on fire dr doubles youk lowrie tek
i think switching drew and lowell might be a good thing. i actually think that drew is (right now) more productive than lowell. i don't know how much the left, right, left, right alignment helps but this lineup has got it until 7-8-9.
45 comments:
Jayson Stark of ESPN.com quotes "an official" from one of the three teams involved in the rumored Manny Ramirez swap as saying that the odds of a deal are "50-50."
Herald:
"Talks between the Red Sox and the Marlins concerning Manny Ramirez gained momentum overnight and this morning but a baseball source with direct knowledge of the talks said this morning that the chances of a deal getting done were "less than 50-50".
Globe: "The person most strongly opposed to trading Ramirez has been owner John W. Henry, who takes the position that the Sox cannot get sufficient value in return for him, and that Ramirez gives the team its best chance of winning."
SoSHer SoxFanSince57: "I still see no real evidence that Manny is performing any differently on the field than he has always done. Separate the words and feeling with his performance and I think people will find that he continues to hit like Manny, continues to have knee and hammy problems as we have come to expect, continues to protect his legs on ground outs by not running a top speed, continues to pose on long fly balls and continues to be a marginal to poor fielder. It is the shit from the FO and the press that have caused people to find a new reason to spin his performance. His on-the-field stuff is basically unchanged. IMO, it is just the media's efforts to get the public to reinterpret Manny's performance that is different."
See you tonight!
please manny stay, please manny stay, please manny stay!
if he gets traded to the marlins theres going to be a parade in the bronx, and in tampa... and i every other AL city.
Yup---the evil media and the Front Office, who secretly want to LOSE because it will help them make less money and attract fewer fans, sudenly decided to pesecute Manny Ramirez, a perfect citizen of RedSox Nation and selfless teammate who cares only about the team and gives his all on the field, for no reason whatsoever.
People really believe this! Amazing.
People really believe this! Amazing.
People believe something other than what I believe! Amazing!
Jack, that is not the other side of this discussion and you damn well know it.
Here is more from SoxFanSince57:
"I do not fault Manny for wanting out of the option years. There is nothing wrong with wanting out. There is nothing wrong with telling the Sox that he doesn't want to play in Boston beyond this season. What is wrong is not living up to the terms of a contract that he signed. He agreed to be paid 160M over 8 years and for that he agreed to allow the Sox to hold two option years and have the right to decide to exercise those options until November. The Sox have lived up to their part of the deal. They will have paid Manny 160m by the end of the season. ... Manny gave the Sox the right to wait until November to decide how to proceed. It is totally unreasonable for you or Manny to imply that somehow the contract is over 7 1/2 years into it. IMO, players/people who force their way out of their contractual obligations when it suits them are low lifes."
Schilling (how did he stay quiet for so long?:
"At the end of the day you're taking the field with a guy who doesn't want to play with you, doesn't want to be there, doesn't want to ... obviously effort-wise is just not there and that's disheartening and disappointing. I would absolutely agree that it's affected this team. I don't question it. I've been around when it did before in '06. These are your teammates and it just makes it hard when every question, you're struggling in a 1-for-14 and grinding your [expletive] off at the plate and every question is about something that you have absolutely no control over..."
***
Bye for real!
Jack: For someone who has criticized the arguing tactics of other posters in the past, for you to so obviously exaggerate someone else's viewpoint all out of proportion and then attack THAT -- an opinion that no one has put forth, one that resides only in your own head -- really takes the cake.
If it is true that we are not going to have him on the team next year (A point a never really believed) then a trade for anything is more vaule than we'll get come next spring.
Here is something nobody is talking about. A new contract for Manny? Is that an option? I personally hope not.
Actually, I really like Schill's perspective on the issue, especially seeing as he was there in 2006 and he's still technically on this team now. He keeps track of things and if he says it's a distraction I'd believe him over anyone in the media.
JWH has been the voice of reason in the past, but he did let Theo walk before he stepped in and made the reconciliation. What I feel the most about this is sad. Is it incumbent on the employee or the employer to start the discussion of what the specific problems are. And where is the agent in this whole scenario? Why isn't he pushing his client to sit down with his employer? I know on the surface that sounds naive, but SOMEONE should be able to step back and look at all the circumstances (like Manny's contract being up, the cost of renewal, his production, replacement players, etc). This is not an indictment, but the media certainly isn't going to do that. Manny won't do it. Theo makes a lot of good moves, but I don't see him doing that either. Just my opinion here, but I think that when someone does that, they'd see that they won't get suitable return value in a trade for Manny - especially if they are buying out his contract.
Jeff
BRILLIANT
35 minutes before the deadline, the Red Sox are turning out to be the big losers for the day. Jason Bay has been traded to Tampa, and the Red Sox are nowhere near trading Manny, and they can't trade Brandon Moss for Ron Mahay because Moss needs to be used as Manny insurance, apparently.
But a little bright spot would be, the Bay to Tampa deal isn't quite done, and might not get done.
So it's 3:59. No more speculation. Something either happens or it doesn't.
"Jack, that is not the other side of this discussion and you damn well know it."
Redsock, I know no other way to categorize the post you reprinted...
"...It is the shit from the FO and the press that have caused people to find a new reason to spin his performance. His on-the-field stuff is basically unchanged. IMO, it is just the media's efforts to get the public to reinterpret Manny's performance that is different."
How else do you read that?
Well, that's it. The deadline's passed, and it looks like Manny's staying.
For the love of God, I hope the fans will get off his back. The last thing this team needs right now is for Manny to get booed because he missed a fly ball or something.
The $60,000 Question, then: what the fuck do they do in the offseason?
Sorry, I don't feel that I am exaggerating based on a lot of what I read here.
Why do you think a poster yesterday asked plaintively, "Why don't they do this to Ortiz?" as if Manny is just a random victim. I keep hearing the front office is trying to run Manny out of town, even it it hurts the team. If they decide that he has to go, it's obviously BECAUSE they believe he's hurting the team. Anyone can disagree with their conclusions or analysis, but to suggest that the FO is out to get Manny as a personal vendetta is bizarre---and I CAN read--that's what I see suggested by more than one poster.
And Fansince57, whose post sparked my sarcasm, definitely embodies that. Nothing changed: everybody just decided out of the blue to villify Manny, he says. That's bullshit, and you have said so, not in so many words, yourself.
Edes: "It is my understanding a trade has been made for Manny Ramirez. But no details yet."
Cafardo now says Manny's been traded. No details.
MLB.com has reported Bay has gone to the Dodgers.
Confusion happening. Cafardo thinks the Red Sox acquired Bay.
Just writing this as it happens on NESN's trade deadline special.
Jon Heyman reports Manny goes to the Dodgers, Bay coming to Boston.
Heyman's headline: "Surprise Blockbuster of the Century brewing"
NOOOOOOOO
:(
i feel sick.
Cafardo: "I can tell you *chuckling*, that Manny doesn't know about this deal yet."
Merloni: "Does he even know where LA is?"
And I spoke too soon. Congratulations, me. I'm an idiot.
Cafardo: Hansen, Moss to Pittsburgh. Andy LaRoche to Pittsburgh... Manny to Dodgers, and Jason Bay coming to Boston.
There's got to be a reliever coming to Boston, right?
si.com: "2009 and 2010 options have been officially dropped."
No mention of the Red Sox sending anyone money.
So far:
Red Sox get Jason Bay.
Dodgers get Manny.
Pirates get: Craig Hansen, Brandon Moss, 3B Andy LaRoche, minor-league pitcher Bryan Morris.
And now the $7 million is now said to be included as well.
They pay his salary, they give a bullpen guy, a AAAA outfielder, and Manny, for a LF who is younger than Manny and who doesn't have quite as good of numbers as Manny.
Amazing that it came to this.
No word on any relievers coming to Boston. It doesn't sound like there is any.
As far as this season goes, and forgetting about the cash, it's a net wash. Hansen was going down when Aardsma returned. Moss wasn't going to start in Boston. Bay is close enough to Manny in production that the line-up isn't compromised, and he's a lot younger and signed through next year.
Good job by Theo under terrible pressure. Bravo. And don't forget, this kept Bay from going to Tampa.
A reliever would have been nice. But under the cercumstances, this is as good an outcome as we could hope for.
I don't know why anyone would feel "sick."
The Dodgers are kind of pathetic. Their entire philosophy seems to be "get the most famous people available." Nomar, A. Jones, J. Pierre, D Lowe, J. Schmidt, J. Torre, M. Ramirez. I guess it is sort of working. They might win the division this year.
Manny and Nomar can hang out and bitch about the Boston media and front office. To Joe Torre.
I've wanted Jason Bay since his awesome years in 05 and 06. Didn't think it would happen this way.
Man, imagine if in 2003, I would have told you that in 5 years the Red Sox would have two world series rings, and that Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe, and Nomar would be on the Dodgers being managed with Joe Torre.
my two cents:
i will miss manny. alot. loved the bat and some of the antics. some of them.
but,
i think there is a great upside to bay. he has some speed (15 - 20 stolen base potential is not a stretch), and he has some pop (3o+ hr potential). he had an off year last year, but look at the team around him. this year, the pirates have been better offensively and bays numbers have improved. he looks to be a strong outfielder with no baggage.
who did we lose besides manny? a replacement outfielder that we have not much use for (with coco and youk as an extra if needed) and a shaky relief pitcher that i cover my eyes when he's on the mound. hansen's got great stuff, but it's not consistent and you need consistency in the bullpen.
it seems strange that the sox would also have to fork over the $7 mil. i understood it with the marlins, but the dodgers are a big market club. maybe we'll know more soon.
Their entire philosophy seems to be "get the most famous people available."
The Yankees also often operate under that philosophy.
Also, Bay is a good fielder and baserunner, and I think the difference in batting skill (which isn't that much) should be made up. Plus it gives us 13 million to play with next year. Maybe we can get CC or Ben Sheets.
A caution about Bay...Coco Crisp. When he came over after his two years in Cleveland, it looked like we were getting a younger Johnny Damon on the upswing while Damon was declining. Damon did decline, but he's still much better than Coco, who has proven to be a fraud offensively.
Bay having a great year is still a little worse than Manny on the downswing. I won't miss all Manny's crap, and I'm actually more optimistic about the team's chances of righting itself now. But he was the best right-handed batter I've ever seen in a Sox uniform, and I suspect that won't change during my lifetime. And he got Boston its championship as much as anyone.
absolutely right about coco. bay is going from a city with no media to a city where media is king. we won't know how he will react until he takes the field. he steps into a high pressure situation (filling manny's shoes, pennant race, etc.)...hopefully the media will give him a break if he struggles initially.
one difference from coco to bay is that bay is almost 30, he's not a rookie or just coming into his game. i would consider him a proven talent entering veteran status.
I agree...he's a better bet. And if I'm wrong about line-ups making any difference in how you perform, he'll certainly benefit from the move that way too. If Ellsbury can come out of his funk, an eventual line-up of LBJ, Pedroia, Ortiz, Bay, Lowell, Drew, Youk, Lowrie and Tek (that's how I'd put them---we'll never see it, of course)is as good as anybody's. Still.
Best of all, I won't have to keep fighting with Laura over Manny. Let's just hope she doesn't become a Dodger fan.
hopefully the media will give him a break if he struggles initially.
BWHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH ....
Sorry. (If Bay striggles, I wonder when the "He's no Manny, that's for sure" columns will come out?)
In the newer post, a guy who follows the Bucs a bit describes Bay's outward emotions in Drew-like terms.
...
Though, maybe the media *will* take a short break to refuel their batteries before deciding on the next Sox player to run out of town.
i wouldn't mind seeing this lineup:
lbj
f*** yeah
tizzle
jay-bay
on fire
dr doubles
youk
lowrie
tek
i think switching drew and lowell might be a good thing. i actually think that drew is (right now) more productive than lowell. i don't know how much the left, right, left, right alignment helps but this lineup has got it until 7-8-9.
Best of all, I won't have to keep fighting with Laura over Manny.
Yeah! That's the bestest thing of all!!!
Best of all, I won't have to keep fighting with Laura over Manny.
Glad to hear everything worked out for you Jack. After all, what's more important than things working out for Jack?
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