September 19, 2007

G153: Blue Jays 6, Red Sox 1

1.5 GA.

***


So let it be posted, so let it be done.

***

Clay Buchholz (1.50, 304 ERA+) / Jesse Litsch (4.37, 107 ERA+)

Once again, ThhreadSox hhas tonight's game thhread. If you're at Skydome, swing by Aisle 115, Row 18, Seats 105 & 106 and say Hhi.

The idea that the Red Sox front office (and, by extension, Francona) believes that heading into the post-season with a healthy, well-rested team is more important than either forcing players to play hurt or pushing pitchers (starters, closer) too hard in an all-out attempt to win the East makes sense from a pure baseball standpoint.

However, if pursuit of that goal over the next 10 days is going to result in a few more losses like last night's debacle, it's going to drive this fan (who takes prides in his ability to usually separate emotion from analysis) absolutely fucking batty.

I think we have to face the fact that as long as the Tigers are not making a run for the wild card -- Boston's magic number for eliminating Detroit (and clinching a playoff spot) is 4 -- this is how Francona will manage.

He doesn't care if the Yankees win the East. He doesn't care how the national media and MFY fans will react (and believe me, if we lose the East and don't go on to win the World Series, we'll be hearing about it for years). He wants to go into October with the best team he can have.

I have to keep telling myself that that's the most important thing right now.

73 comments:

Bob said...

"[Tito] wants to go into October with the best team he can have.
I have to keep telling myself that that's the most important thing right now."

Exactly. And I still think you might just get to have your healthy rested team and a division title, too. Either way, the Series, not the division title is the prize. Eyes on the prize.

ish said...

Well, the magic number for the Playoffs is 6 outs away from going down to 3. DET 2, CLE 4, Top of the 8th.

Jere said...

I think if we both make the playoffs, with them as division champ, the only way we'd hear about it for years is if they win it all, or maybe if they win in round one and we lose. If we win it all, or go one round further, or beat them head to head, they shouldn't have a right to say anything (but they will--just ignore). Oh, and if they beat us in the ALCS, well, they should brag about that, and not who won the division anyway.

The key is, every win by us and loss by them is crucial to the division--just a few of those in the next few days would all but wrap it up for us. Sounds weird right now, but after we get a win, the panic talk will ease up and it will sound more reasonable.

Amy said...

[moved from another thread since it seems relevant here]

FWIW, I am with L-girl. I will be crushed if the Sox don't win the division after leading all season, and I also believe that the players will feel that way and may not snap out of it for the playoffs. I say, do or die NOW. None of this saving arms and bats for October.

ish said...

DET 2, CLE 4. Final.

Wild card magic number: 3

L-girl said...

I have to keep telling myself that that's the most important thing right now.

It's not the most important thing to me.

I would rather win the division and not get past the DS than win the wild card and go to the WS.

Not that those are the only two choices, but winning the division is the most important thing to me.

L-girl said...

but winning the division is the most important thing to me.

And I have not given up on that, and I still believe we're going to win it.

Keep the faith.

Timmy Mac said...

I'm right there with you. My brain tells me that being rested and re-charged for the postseason is the smart thing to do, but my gut tells me that losing the division will feel like, well, losing to the Yankees again.

nixon33 said...

when you look at it, its all meaningless unless you win the world series! (kidding, sort of...)

i'd love to win the division, and the perks that come with it, etc (i cant believe i'm typing this, how spoiled we've become)
BUT, i'd rather have a healthy manny for the playoffs, healthy oki, healthy everybody, for that matter.
i guess the most dissapointing thing is that its a SERIOUS possibility that we will blow the division. we had so many chances to put it away and didnt.

our management of the bullpen needs to change.

TXBoSoxFan said...

Alright this is my first time to this site and will admit after watching the lead come down to 2 1/2 games in front of the Spankees, I felt this would relieve some of the oncoming panic I'm getting. I would have to agree with the comments being made about having the best team out there for the playoffs, AL EAST Champ be damned. If givig up the AL EAST in order to get our guys healthy for the postseason so be it.

The thing that bothers me is that fact that after playing a good series with the Yanks that could of gone either way (except the ass kicking we put on them Sat), we come up lame on Monday to lose and then the gas tank GAGNE blows yesterday's game. Yeah Burnett has been pitchin his ass off, and we were still able to play good enough to win, until Gagne blows yet another save. Why do we keep putting this guy in?!?!?! Fine put him in but make sure we have a 7 to 8 run lead before we do. Guy looks like a big mistake bringing him to Boston.

Enough of this "we are still up by 2 1/2 games" and "I'd rather be up by 2 1/2 than down 2 1/2". Forget all that nonsense and go take it one game at a time, one win at a time.

LETS GO REDSOX!

L-girl said...

It's cool to see/hear the different takes fans have on this.

I am nervous about the division, but I haven't given up on it, not at all. I hope all you folks who feel content with the wild card have not, either.

I don't mean that as a taunt or to rag on you (truly). I just want everyone to keep the faith. In the next few days we could salt it away.

nixon33 said...

of course we still have faith, i mean we do have a 3 game set vs the d-rays (even though they are a sneaky team and we'll se kazmir) that could change everything.
i am a little nervous about that 4 game set with minn, though.

Tony said...

Despite the fact that I've been grinding my teeth thinking about this damn team all day, I've turned a corner and I've decided that I want this team to win the division. For one thing, it'd involve this team actually WINNING some games, and the carryover from anything good that happens in these wins (improved hitting, better starting pitching, Gagne falling off the mound and breaking his leg) could help the team come October. Secondly, it'd be a nice FU to all the MFY fans who've been sharpening their knives for the past few weeks. Third, I really want them to have HFA throughout the playoffs, and that ain't happening without winning the division (and warding off a scalding hot Cleveland team). Last, and most importantly, it'll make ME feel better. :p

TXBoSoxFan said...

Yeah I hear you on the series with Minn too. And Oakland as well. But right now any team is just as likely to beat just as the good teams. Well, Ok, I take that back, any team that isn't named the Orioles will put up a good based on the whooping they got last night. Just got to play everyone tough and make the opposing pithers work.

Devine said...

I would be devastated, just devastated, if the Sox gave up the ghost with so few games left in the season. I really want the division...I don't know that I'm willing to say that I'd take a first-round playoff loss to give up the division a la l-girl...but it's pretty close to that.

Please, Sox? Please?

L-girl said...

Yeah Tony and Devine. :)

Devine, we never see you in game threads. I appreciate your presence b/c I know what side you're on, in the bigger picture.

Josh Wilker said...

Here's a little On This Date fun for us troubled Red Sox fans:

On September 19, 2005, the Chicago White Sox dropped their 8th game 11 days, narrowing their division lead to 2.5 games, down from a high of 15 games earlier in the year. I can't recall what happened to them after September 19.

nixon33 said...

they beat the red sox in the first round, thats what i remember

Devine said...

Thanks for noticing when I'm gone, l-girl.

When I game-thread (which hasn't been much recently as the Sox have driven me effing nuts), I tend to do it at YanksFan vs. SoxFan. Maybe I'll switch over and see if the mojo works better over here for a little while. However, I might not be in for a bit because the Sox have driven me to such anger that I wonder if I'm not better off just reading the box scores after the game is over. I have faith, but they really are killing me. When I think of the number of games Gagne has blown and how we should've had the Yankees last Friday...

Devine said...

Oh, and obviously I meant that I might not be willing to concede a first-round playoff bounce if the Sox win the division, but it's close. My phrasing earlier was off.

L-girl said...

Devine, I understand. I stay out of game threads when I'm feeling very negative. It just makes me feel worse.

I wasn't trying to lure you over to our thread - although you would be a welcome addition.

Re White Sox, they went on to win the WS, so I like that comparison.

nixon33 said...

yanks upcoming schedule:
TOR 3 games
TB 3 games
BAL 3 games

L-girl said...

You should have heard the Toronto fans last night. That's another reason we have to win tonight, to keep Redsock and I from killing a few of them.

Last night I had real sympathy for how Allan put up with Yankee Stadium for all those years. And that had to be way worse, b/c of the rivalry, and b/c Canadians are not as aggressive as folks from NY, Philly, Boston.

redsock said...

yanks upcoming schedule:
TOR 3 games
TB 3 games
BAL 3 games


Which includes Halladay, Burnett, and Red Dot.

redsock said...

Last night I had real sympathy for how Allan put up with Yankee Stadium for all those years.

You have no fucking idea.

(Up until last night the sympathy was not real? :<( Honestly, last night was nothing. As I said at breakfast, even if the fans had been silent all night, I'd still be just as pissed off.))

I don't know how many dozens of games I went to at Yankee Stadium with my B hat on (1987 to 2005), but even I can't fathom what Sox fans who went to 2003 ALCS 7 must have gone through.

Seriously. If you sit in the upper deck for a playoff game, it would take at least an hour to get out of the park, most likely more. Good god. That must have been some rough shit.

nixon33 said...

yeah im not looking at the TOR series as being easy for them...

Devine said...

We owe the White Sox for that year, even though they bumped us fair and square.

If they hadn't played Cleveland hard those last few days in '05 (remember Guillen making a choke gesture at the Cleveland fans?), we don't make the postseason or at least have to do one or two of those one-game playoff dealies.

TXBoSoxFan said...

And the last 6 games for the Yanks are away games. Which really doesn't matter they way they've been rolling. We just need to worry about the Red Sox schedule.

nixon33 said...

i think black sabbath should be on the speakers of the radios in the clubhouse today, thats just me though.

L-girl said...

I was into the White Sox WS win. I didn't think we were a championship team in 2005, so I wasn't surprised by the outcome. They made history, following our lead from the previous year. Plus they're an original team with deep roots, I like that.

redsock said...

Any particular Sabbath?

Another good choice: Motorhead --
Iron Fist.

(Why Bot doesn't take Ace of Spades for his entrance music is beyond me.)

L-girl said...

(Up until last night the sympathy was not real? :<(

Poor choice of words. :)

Last night brought back my sympathy for what you went through in NY. How's that?

but even I can't fathom what Sox fans who went to 2003 ALCS 7 must have gone through.

And as I said at breakfast, if you go to a Game 7, that's the chance you take. Take the chance, or watch on TV.

nixon33 said...

i think at this point you cant help but worry about both teams schedules. kinda like how we scoreboard watch (pretty much all of the season)
but yes we need to worry about the red sox.
we need to win some games!
HH the stoppah.

nixon33 said...

re: sabbath
maybe children of the grave/snowblind/paranoid, etc. NO DIO SABBATH!

nixon33 said...

that would be awesome for pap, ace of spades. perfect!!!!!!

L-girl said...

at this point we have to worry about everything!

L-girl said...

ace of spades yes, paranoid no

nixon33 said...

L-girl said...
at this point we have to worry about everything!

ha, true, but funny!

maybe paranoid isnt the right choise cause of the name, but its a great song.

nixon33 said...

choice rather, is there an edit function here, i type too fast and dont spell check, ha.

L-girl said...

We're getting ready to go to the game, so it's Threadsox until we get home.

Have fun and GO RED SOX!!!

L-girl said...

definitely a great song! wrong title for the occasion, tho.

what's that song... "we're gonna win the division and the yankees suck..."... how does that go again?

have fun tonight :)

Devine said...

Judas Priest's "Rapid Fire" (the first verse particularly) is what I've been about this year as the Sox's theme.

"Pounding the world like a battering ram
Forging the furnace for the final grand slam
Chopping away at the source, soon the cause will be gone
Cleaving a trail of destruction that's second to none"

Devine said...

PS "Ace of Spades" is a great choice for Papelbon's entrance music.

nixon33 said...

have an awesome time watching the sox kick some serious fucking ass tonight!

ish said...

choice rather, is there an edit function here, i type too fast and dont spell check, ha.

Good thing about ThreadSox. Edit feature.

TXBoSoxFan said...

I think they are leaving Toronto with W tonite. I really believe so. Leave it to the Buchholz to get this thing going. Now if Burres can out pitch Pettitte and shutdown the Spankee line up. Sounds crazy, but hey anything is possible right.

redsock said...

Alright, we're off, so no comments will be put through until 11 or 11:30 tonight.

3 Things I Want:

1. The Red Sox to score so many goddamn runs that John Gibbons is out by the plate on his knees, begging, crying, pleading for the umpires to stop the game.

2. A strange electrical snafu that somehow knocks out power only to the circuits that control the moronic snippets of music, sound effects and commercial they fucking blast at deafening volumes at Skydome.

3. Eric Hinske to become the first MLB player to hit 5 HR in one game. And on his fifth one, to WALK around the bases, laughing his ass off, flashing both his middle fingers at all the Jays fans for riding his ass all series.

3b. Another "good game" for Clay.

Thank you. If these things happen, then I'll believe in the Baseball Gods.

Jere said...

"it would take at least an hour to get out of the park,"

That's what I always hated the most about Yankee Stadium trips (1979-now), the long walk out, back and forth down those stupid ramps, all packed in, win or lose. That's where you have a tough time with...bad people.

But, also, I always wanted to jump over to the opposite ramps, which always seemed to be empty. What was up with that?

curt said...

I am nervous about the division, but I haven't given up on it, not at all. I hope all you folks who feel content with the wild card have not, either.

It's not so much that I would feel content with the wild card. Hey, I'm nervous and I want it all too.

My biggest fear would be to frantically go all out for the division, instead of having a rested, no-panic, set-rotation team entering the playoffs -- and then wind up with neither.

I'd rather the Sox set their sights on the big prize at the end of October, knowing that they will still probably wind up with the Division crown too.

s1c said...

I've said it since may. this team is not blowing this lead. not gonna happen.

besides I'm supposed to be the eyeore of this parade filled with the gloom and doom while the sun is shining in the 100 acre wood. I'll let you decide who is christopher robin, pooh, piglet etal.

Zenslinger said...

Amen, Curt.

It's hard to take such a reasoned approach when you've been tasting that Division crown all year, though. All those projections at how hard it would be for the Yanks to come back. Arrrr.

nixon33 said...

HOLY GOD!!!!!!!!

ish said...

Get 'em Friday, brother.

...Nothing else to say. Just win Friday.

curt said...

zen,

It's hard to take such a reasoned approach when you've been tasting that Division crown all year, though.

Amen back at ya. And I'm willing to admit that a significant part of the "reasoned approach" is defense mechanism to lessen the pain.

How's this for tonight's reasoned approach (aka painkiller): I'd rather they go through this dry spell now than in two weeks.

TXBoSoxFan said...

You said it Nix. I'm stunned. I just feel it all unraveling and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I found myself in praying that somehow the Orioles could get over on Mariano to no avail. And just like that 1 1/2 closer.

Only way they get out of this ungodly tail spin, is if everyone in that locker room takes a good look at themselves and ask themselves if they lack the heart and pride to just roll over on the Jays and have the Yankees take the lead. Someone kick Lugo in the ass next time he doesn't run out of the box like he did tonite.

This is making me sick.

Jere said...

"decide who is christopher robin, pooh, piglet"

Joba is a piglet. Clemens has always been full of pooh.

tim said...

On a happier note (for Canadians, at least :-D) it looks like today is going to be the day, or sometime very soon, that the Canadian dollar = the US dollar. We're within a cent of it now...

L-girl said...

Tim, no offense, but who cares.

L-girl said...

Good thing about ThreadSox. Edit feature.

Just in case anyone doesn't know this, we've been there, done that and then some.

Allan took a reader's poll, and the game threads are staying at JoS.

L-girl said...

Bad mood, me? What makes you say that?

Tony said...

All I'm going to say is this:

Toronto better keep their playing shoes on for the Yankees.

They just better.

ish said...

Allan took a reader's poll, and the game threads are staying at JoS.

I had never been to ThreadSox at that point, and that was before you and Allan went to your games at Skydome and the game threads had a three-day audition, if you will, at ThreadSox.

I'm not saying I don't like doing the game threads here, but it might be a good idea to see how everyone likes ThreadSox having had three game threads there.

On a happier note (for Canadians, at least :-D) it looks like today is going to be the day, or sometime very soon, that the Canadian dollar = the US dollar. We're within a cent of it now...

Certainly happier for you Canadians, yes. Grumble grumble grumble. Haha. I never, ever thought there'd be a time where I'd go to Canada, exchange US money to Canadian, and get less than I had. It's been a couple of years since I've been back (My grandmother lives in Caribou, Maine, so I go over to Grand Falls, NB) and even then, I never thought the two countries' dollars would be equal in value, and the way it's looking, Canadian dollar will be worth more.

And as for the Red Sox, what else can you say but go out and get 'em tomorrow? There's not much else to say, and certainly not much sense in getting angry at people because... the Red Sox lost. Just tip your cap at the Jays, growl at Francona, and win tomorrow. Boy, do we desperately need a win. Heads are going to start rolling around here if we don't. I want to say woot again! But I learned a long time ago that there's no sense in getting angry at someone with no relation to the team (other fans, friends, family, etc etc etc.) after the Sox lose. How does that make sense? "Why are you angry at me?" "Because the Red Sox lost..."???? Take a deep breath, or a swig of your favorite alcoholic beverage, and remember tomorrow's a new game, against a new team. Not to mention today is a MUCH needed off-day for both the players, and the fans.

So, chill, people. It's not over.

L-girl said...

but it might be a good idea to see how everyone likes ThreadSox having had three game threads there

We had game threads there, then Allan took the poll. It must have been just before you joined us.

Note how many more comments there are at JoS game threads. That's why.

L-girl said...

Toronto better keep their playing shoes on for the Yankees.

What Tony said.

L-girl said...

But I learned a long time ago that there's no sense in getting angry at someone with no relation to the team (other fans, friends, family, etc etc etc.) after the Sox lose. How does that make sense? "Why are you angry at me?" "Because the Red Sox lost..."????

It might make no sense, but it is very common human behaviour, when unhappy about something, for that unhappiness to spill over into other areas of our lives.

We should all try to avoid it. But on the other hand, our loved ones can also try to understand how much this means to us.

I grew up in a very non-sports environment. My family doesn't have a clue about my feelings about my team. They think it's cute and funny.

Ha ha.

redsock said...

it might be a good idea to see how everyone likes ThreadSox having had three game threads there.

The Red Sox went 0-3 during that stretch. A really bad 0-3.

Boo ThreadSox!!!!!!

...

(jk Cakey.)

ish said...

Yep, there's always both sides to it. Anyone could tell that the Sox lost by looking at me and the mood I get in. It's just, a bad mood; worse, depending on the circumstance. And if someone doesn't know why I'm in a bad mood, I try not to tell them the Red Sox lost. Most people don't understand. Russ Adams hits that grand slam last night, and my heart just sinks. Rivera rings up the last out in da Bronx, and my heart sinks further. It's hard not to be short with someone who may press the wrong button at the wrong time. Just have to put things into perspective and move on, I guess.

ish said...

The Red Sox went 0-3 during that stretch. A really bad 0-3.

Yeah well, well, WELL... The Red Sox went 0-3 when you and L went to see them! Boooooo!!!! Curses!!!! So there!

ish said...

(obviously I'm kidding, too. Even though they're both facts. Meaningless facts, but still facts.)

L-girl said...

And if someone doesn't know why I'm in a bad mood, I try not to tell them the Red Sox lost. Most people don't understand.

Exactly.

That's one reason I love knowing politically like-minded people who also love a sport. They understand me on many levels.

Meaningless facts, but still facts.

Right. Coincidental facts, without a causal relationship. :)

redsock said...

The Red Sox went 0-3 when you and L went to see them! Boooooo!!!!

I promise we will not attend more Red Sox games this season.

The Sox did win 5 of the first 6 games we saw at Skydome this year, however. (Final in Toronto record: 5-4.)

Jere said...

"Tim, no offense, but who cares."

That was a funny line.

"there's no sense in getting angry at someone with no relation to the team (other fans, friends, family, etc etc etc.) after the Sox lose."

That's no fun! I took my aggressions out on Marc Ecko last night and boy did it feel good.

ish said...

That's no fun! I took my aggressions out on Marc Ecko last night and boy did it feel good.

Hey... If they did something to you warrant getting pissed at them about, then GO AHEAD!!! The added fuel by the Red Sox loss is just enough to get so angry and pissed off at them to make them feel horrible about themselves for the next week!

And make you feel much better!

I guess I meant those people who did nothing to you. "Hey, how's it going?" "SHUT UP!!! GAHSBJKghjklgh! The Red Sox lost! I HATE YOU!" Haha.

(and if they're a Yankees fan, they're fair game!)