Theo Epstein, 1:45 PM:
John Henry, Tom Werner, Larry Lucchino, Ben Cherington and I met with Terry Francona this morning at Fenway Park to exchange thoughts and information on the 2011 season and discuss areas for improvement going forward. We all plan on taking some time to process the thoughts expressed in the meeting. There are no immediate plans for an announcement.
Gordon Edes, 11:06 AM:
Terry Francona told Boston Red Sox staff members on Thursday that he will not be returning as manager, a club source said on Friday.
Ken Rosenthal, Fox Sports:
Terry Francona will meet with Red Sox management on Friday morning, and the expected resolution is that he no longer will be the team's manager, major league sources say.Daryl Van Schouwen, Chicago Sun-Times:
While Francona's departure is not certain, it is the likely outcome, in part because he is pressing for a resolution, sources say. He would not be fired; the Red Sox would simply decline their club options on him for 2012 and '13.
Francona has had enough of his eroding Boston experience, a major-league source said, and will ask the club not to exercise the option on his contract.The Red Sox front office is smart enough to know that dumping Francona would not solve any of the problems that led to their collapse. And I have no doubt that Theo Epstein was telling the truth yesterday when he said:
"He has had his fill of the whole thing," the source told the Sun-Times.
[N]obody blames what happened in September on Tito. It would be totally irresponsible and totally short-sighted. ... [W]e don't believe in scapegoats, and in particular no one blames Tito for what happened in September. We all failed collectively.Gordon Edes was on ESPN late last night saying that it's possible the team wanted to make a change but are content to make it look like Tito's decision. I would assume that if Francona was leaving it was because he wanted to leave, but there is always more going on behind the scenes that we will never know about.
At yesterday's press conference, Francona admitted that he had called a team meeting on September 7, after the Red Sox had beaten the Blue Jays 14-0. (my emphasis)
This team I think became challenging at the end. There were some things I was worried about. We were spending too much energy on things that weren't putting our best foot forward toward winning. We spent a few minutes in the clubhouse that day talking about that. There were some things that did concern me. Normally as the season progresses, there are events that make you care about each other, and this club, it didn't always happen as much as I wanted it to. And I was frustrated by that.The Herald reports:
Francona was in part annoyed over complaints about the buses to the ballpark and wanted players to focus their energy more positively.More Francona:
Meanwhile, a number of players put themselves into a position to have their professionalism called into question. According to multiple sources, more than one pitcher drank beer in the clubhouse during games on the days he didn't pitch.
While clubhouse imbibing is a tradition as old as baseball itself ... the Red Sox also had a number of players break down during the season, suggesting that they weren't taking proper care of themselves.
Ultimately you don't need a team that wants to go out to dinner together. But you need a team that wants to protect each other on the field and be fiercely loyal to each other on the field. That's what ultimately is really important. ... I wanted us to handle things on the field a little bit better than we did. At times, we just didn't get there and it was very difficult.
[W]e did sense that things weren't right. A lot of things went wrong and a lot of things had to go wrong for us to blow the lead but they did. I don't think any of them were completely unforeseen. We tried different things. I know Tito talked about his meeting in Toronto. I actually addressed the team later on in the month before a game. ... There was a lot of talent in that clubhouse and we didn't get results commensurate with that talent.Francona will meet with Epstein and the ownership group at 10 AM this morning.
Of all the possible changes the team could make this winter, this is probably the most surprising - and depressing.
30 comments:
Crap. This is just about the last thing we needed.
Copying some comments from the G162 post:
Rob said...
Hearing rumors that Terry Francona and the Red Sox could be parting ways as early as tomorrow morning. That would be a bigger gut punch to me than this September collapse.
September 30, 2011 12:17 AM
tim said...
Keith Olbermann has a blog post about Francona's apparent departure as well.
I agree with you Rob - it is making my stomach churn.
Francona not coming back - what the fuck are they going to do? Make Bogar manager?
Francona leaving is akin to Farrell leaving after last season and being replaced by shit. A key part of the coaching staff which will be replaced by complete shit.
September 30, 2011 8:00 AM
Amy said...
It also sounds like this is at least as much Francona's choice as it is a decision of the FO. He says he has had enough..enough of what? Loyal fans? Two World Championships? I read something about complaints about buses---any clue what that is about? And pitchers drinking beer in the dugout on their offdays? Why does this smack of Lackey to me? Or is that just my own dislike of him coloring my interpretation of the story?
September 30, 2011 9:17 AM
laura k said...
And pitchers drinking beer in the dugout on their offdays? Why does this smack of Lackey to me? Or is that just my own dislike of him coloring my interpretation of the story?
Yes, absolutely. We can't possibly think Lackey is the only a'hole on the pitching staff. Do we think we'd like to hang out with Josh Beckett on his off days?
September 30, 2011 10:00 AM
I have always said that I want Tito as manager until he doesn't want to do it anymore. Maybe he had enough. Eight years is a long time in a pressure cooker like Boston, no matter how many rings you get.
Shit, this is bad.
Plus, the two options years for Tito (2012 and 2013) must be exercised together. Maybe that is not a situation either side wants to commit too, if the clubhouse is as rocky or toxic as the quotes imply?
HA!!!!
Odds of Red Sox and Rays Septembers happening the way they did?
Maybe 278 million to 1.
Jackie MacMullan over at ESPNBos also names names in the chemistry dep't, (whiny Youk).
Reading the piling on from the various sites is pathetic. Why wasn't any of this reported by these guys (and gals) while it was happening?
I'll miss Tito. Joe Maddon gets way too much credit for having a bunch of young guys who can actually pitch. I got 2 words for ya Joe--B.J. Upton. Immune to your genius, is he?
The problem I've had with the Red Sox this year (and last year) is players I flat out did not like. I found myself getting pissed at players I should have been a fan of. Where are all the guys we loved? John Lackey, Carl Crawford, Matt Albers, Franklin Morales, hell, even Jonathon Papelbon.
I think all of us can relate to Terry Francona in some way to how he's feeling and how it's been eight years and sometimes you just get burned out. If I had to manage those 25 guys I wouldn't be able to sleep, either.
A team of superstars does not (always) make a winning team.
Re Rob's comment, there are definitely players on the team I'm not crazy about, but there are also so many I love. I guess I expect that with any team. But I wouldn't say the 2011 Red Sox is a team of superstars.
Why am I not surprised Yook is a whiner?
Joe Maddon would be my second choice for manager. There are some godawful managers out there, and since it's usually just a game of musical chairs, let's hope we aren't stuck with one of the dummies.
Ugh. This really, REALLY sucks. It also says a lot about the team and explains why they fell apart the way that they did. I hope Tito does well in his next endeavor and I hope that he comes back to Fenway to get his due.
Don't discount the general stress level. Terry has some ailments -- I mean, when you're spitting up blood from an ulcer (wasn't he?) a couple years ago, and you have other challenges with the team, maybe you decide to take a couple years off from managing.
I had the thought of maybe going to The Bar today to hang out. But I do not really want to deal with "unmoderated" baseball talk, and definitely don't want to see any other fucking team playing my game just yet.
I agree wholeheartedly -- it would be disappointing to see Teets go, but if it's his decision, so be it. And I don't know who we could possibly get in his place.
Teets?!
But I do not really want to deal with "unmoderated" baseball talk, and definitely don't want to see any other fucking team playing my game just yet.
Boy do I relate.
Not being in the Boston area, I only know a few other Red Sox fans who I see in person - and one of them is Allan.
At a war resisters thing last night, I saw our friend Carolyn who is a lifelong Sox fan. She comes from a working class Boston Irish family, many generations of Sox fans.
We both found it such a relief to see each other and commiserate. She also didn't want to talk to anyone who wouldn't totally understand.
Last year Carolyn lost both her parents. (She is in her late 60s, it was not a tragedy.) Her dad's final words were that he was at peace because he saw two Red Sox championships! Literally his final words.
Skimming the SoSH thread:
Jessica Moran (Comcast SportsNet)on Twitter...
BREAKING MLB source...meeting is over, nothing has been resolved, decision coming in next day or two.
***
@LynchieWCVB Mike Lynch
Sox ownership voted Francona out two weeks ago. Major objection: no sense of urgency in the clubhouse.
***
Tom Caron
Francona just left Fenway Park. Drove off w/o comment.
John Henry, Tom Werner just left as well. No comment. #RedSox
***
McAdam:
Terry Francona's meeting with the Red Sox has ended and, contrary to earlier indications, no decision apparently was made on his status as Red Sox manager.
Multiple sources indicated prior to the meeting that the sides had made a mutual decision to part ways. But now, indications are any decision won't be made for at least a day or two.
***
Michael Silverman, Herald
FWIW, a #RedSox source in the loop said before the Francona-Henry meeting that it was "premature" to say Tito not coming back. Stay tuned.
***
Danny Knobler (CBS):
General manager Theo Epstein could be heard in the stands openly questioning some of his manager's in-game moves, according to sources.
***
SoSHer: On the noon news, WCVB's Mike Lynch just reported from Fenway that "John Henry dismissed Tito as manager" today. While I get that it seems like it's more probable than not, at the risk of sounding naive, how can he report it so definitively without giving any kind of supporting proof?
Another SoSHer: "His report included these tidbits, 2 weeks ago Henry, Werner and LL made the decision on the manager extensions and voted 3-0 not to renew Tito's contract. Sighted the lack of urgency in reaction to September play. Lynch also reported that 6 weeks ago Theo supposedly stated to owners that this wasn't working with Tito."
3rd SoSHer: "I heard an interview with Tito, probably on the Jim Rome show about a month ago, and somehow the subject of working with Theo for all these years came up. Tito said, "well, we haven't killed each other yet". At the time, I thought, well, that's just Tito's always sharp wit, no big deal. Now I wonder if something kind of slipped out there."
***
"A grim-faced Terry Francona showed up at Fenway Park early Friday morning looking stern and asking reporters to "give me a (blank) break" as he entered the park for meetings with his bosses ...
Sources told Lynch that team general manager Theo Epstein told management six weeks ago that Francona wasn't working out and they voted him out by a 3-0 vote a few weeks after that. It was said that a "lack of urgency" was the primary reason behind the decision, because Francona is not known as a disciplinarian.
********
Man, what a bummer. I'll miss him and his postgame pressers.
Teets?!
It's a Surviving Grady nickname.
Not happy that Francona may be leaving. I'd like to see him stay, though I would also like to see certain members of his staff get the boot (Bogar comes to mind).
It's a Surviving Grady nickname.
I'm aware of that. Just surprised to see it used here. I like it as much as I like everything about SG.
The Boston Herald reported one divisive issue, citing sources as saying that pitchers were allowed to drink beer in the clubhouse on their off days. A Red Sox source not only confirmed to ESPNBoston.com that was the case, but also said that it "has been going on for two years."
While I read every JoS entry, I don't read every single comment thread, so I'm not aware if SG references are frowned upon here. I don't mean to offend.
They are not frowned on. Use them if you like.
I'm assuaging my worry by laughing at Gordon Edes' Twitter. Apparently Tito has been going in and out of Fenway all day. xP
Don't worry Wardo, may of us are bilingual and can speak both SG and JoS! Personally I found the combo of the two blogs to be extremely soothing in the painful aftermath of Wednesday night: I needed seriousness and silliness. Laura - I feel for you, as here in s Indiana everyone is a Cards fan and there is just one guy I know who is a Red Sox fan. I haven't seen him since Wed - he's probably hiding under his bed, poor bastard. Thank goodness for the blogosphere!
While I read every JoS entry, I don't read every single comment thread, so I'm not aware if SG references are frowned upon here. I don't mean to offend.
It was just my personal opinion. This is not my blog, I don't make the rules, and even if I did... 'twas nothing.
Mac Cartoons, thanks, although I really can't complain, as most people here don't pay attention to baseball at all. Many of my friends follow hockey but are more friendly and less rabid about team rivalries.
It was far, far worse for Allan when we lived in NYC!
And YES, thank dog for the internet.
I just heard that this is official. I am SO sad. I will really miss Francona and feel like all Sox fans owe him so much.
The statements from Theo and Terry both made it sound as if this was Terry's choice---that he felt the team needed a new voice, that he could no longer reach the players. But the a-holes on EEI then immediately said, "Well, of course, that's the public statement, but we all know he was fired."
:( Just not a good baseball week. What next? They are tearing down Fenway Park?
WBZ's Mike Macklin witnesses Red Sox owner John Henry helped off his yacht wearing a neck brace to an awaiting ambulance moments ago.
WTF?
I'd like to know which players - in the heat of a pennant race - were basically telling Tito to go fuck off.
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