August 2, 2008

Remy Catapults The Propaganda

One of my biggest complaints about NESN's Don Orsillo and Jerry Remy is that they seem content to focus solely on the game that is being played in front of them that night. With the various cable packages and MLBTV, Red Sox fans from all over the world can now follow their team on a daily basis. And because those fans may not have the time (or ability) to access the Boston papers online, I expect Orsillo and Remy to provide something like an in-game version of the beatwriters' notebook articles.

Last night, the NESN duo spoke at length about the Manny Ramirez situation. They spent the better part of the third inning giving us a completely one-sided view of matters. Both men came off very badly, but Remy's comments were especially odious. After assuring us that he was not engaging in Manny-bashing, Remy launched straight into pure Manny-bashing propaganda.

Back on June 22, 2003, L and I listened to Mets reliever Armando Benitez walk four Yankees in the 11th inning and blow the game. John Sterling and Michael Kay, the Yankee radio announcers, ripped Benitez for yet another crappy outing. They were just about laughing at how useless he was. But in a strange twist, about three weeks later, Benitez became a member of the Yankees. Suddenly, Sterling and Kay were talking up the gas can as if he was the reincarnation of Walter Johnson. He was a great pitcher who had simply run into some bad luck. Under orders to talk up the latest Yankee, they dutifully complied.

Last night, Jerry Remy and Don Orsillo were also dutifully playing the part of company men, presenting opinion as fact while admitting at one point that they had no idea if what they were saying was true. They seemed at times to be reading from a script handed down from the front office, in an effort to put a cap on the Manny saga. Or maybe they felt this is what they should say, or maybe they finally felt free to let their prejudices run wild.

They listed Manny's transgressions against his teammates, the Red Sox franchise, even the great game of baseball, while presenting the Red Sox organization as not only blameless, but selfless too, having done so much over the years to make Manny happy. And while laying the blame for this whole mess at Ramirez's feet, they somehow "forgot" to mention John Henry's email to the Herald calling Manny's mid-July comments "obscene" [Note: Henry actually called Manny's comments "personally offensive"; my error] which greatly escalated the matter, and Theo Epstein's uncharacteristic statement to Joe Buck and Tim McCarver that he was trying to trade Manny and that the Fox duo was more than happy to share that information with their national audience.

Added: At one point Orsillo asked Remy if Manny possessed "any respect" for the game. The same man who happily blabs about the idiotic Sox Appeal and speculates at length about what the couples on screen are thinking -- while the game is in progress -- this man is asking about respecting the game. And the guy he's posing the question to is often selling his autographed scorecards and other merchandise during games. Trying to make extra buck while on the job? Is that respecting the game, Jerry?


Remy: Getting back to the Manny situation, which we have to, obviously -- it was impossible for this relationship to continue, in my opinion, and we saw what happened over the last couple of weeks, the way the club responded, and when it trickles down to the players -- that's when you have a real problem. You can have a problem with the manager, you can have a problem with the front office, but when it trickles down to where players lose respect for you, then something has to be done.

When he sat down those two games against Seattle and of course the New York Yankees, that first game against Joba Chamberlain, a lot of that respect was lost by even a lot of his good friends in the clubhouse. And you can imagine -- the last thing I think the Red Sox wanted to do is have to make this deal. I really do. I think they would hope that he'd be able to finish here this year, put up great numbers, and I'm sure there was much discussion -- well, if we keep the guy, is he gonna give us 100% the rest of the year and is he gonna make a contract push. You can never be guaranteed that with Manny. There's nobody in that room that could say Yeah, that's definitely gonna happen. You can't say that because at any point, as we've seen in the past, it could turn around, he could go the other way and go home.

So they had no other option to do but what they did. They gave up a lot, there's no question about that. They gave up a lot to get rid of one guy. But they got a better player than I thought they were going to get - in Jason Bay. I really do.

Orsillo: You could have ended up with nothing, virtually, but it was clear that the need to get rid of him and get him out of town was #1 on the docket.

Remy: The two things that bothered me the most about what Manny did over the last couple of weeks was first of all sitting out on his teammates in those two games. That bothered me. The other thing that bothered me is when he started to put that spin on the front office -- like everybody's against me. I'm going to tell you something. And I've always been a fan of Manny's. But this organization, since he's been here, has bent over backwards, in many, many ways, to make it as comfortable, to put up with a lot of stuff that they didn't need to put up with, so he would just go out and hit and perform and help this team win. Which he did. They won two world championships with him.

But to say those types of things about the organization, I thought, was unfair of Manny because they put up with an awful lot with him and I thought they made every effort that they possibly could to make him as comfortable and as happy as they possibly could to play here in Boston. So those two things irked me the last couple of weeks.

Orsillo: I know there's no question over the last couple of weeks that his teammates have reacted much differently to this situation than in the past.

Remy: You're exactly right. And over the last few days, Francona had been calling in veteran players to get their feel, I think, on how they would feel if he would leave or if they would want him to stay, that's just my -- I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but you can only guess when you see veterans going into, prior to a trade deadline, into his office. So I think they were getting input from everybody and I really honestly think the players feel we're better off without this aggravation, because first of all, he sits down on them, then after that, they have to answer questions on stuff that he's saying. They don't want to deal with that.

Orsillo: I think there's very little doubt that he was coming back here next year, and that they were going to pick up his option at that point either.

Remy: No. So you're weighing -- is this guy the type of guy who is, he's so angry that for two months he's gonna play like crazy for a new contract -- you can't be guaranteed that with Manny. And I think that was the major issue that finally -- you got to move him, he's got to go now. And -- the Manny era is over. And I gotta tell you, for me personally, I liked him. In our job, he was entertaining to watch.

Orsillo: Very!

Remy: He annoyed me when he didn't run out balls [laughs], when he became lazy and didn't do things. But to watch him hit every day was certainly a pleasure. And also, you never knew what to expect from the guy.

Orsillo: I wanted to ask you about that because I know how much you respect the game and respected the game as a player. There are those who say that Manny has zero respect for the game. Your thoughts on that -- and did he have respect for the game that we did perhaps not see?

Remy: Yeah, I think he has respect for the game. But he didn't show it on the field all the time. When you -- a good example was the other night. That's just one example of not running a ball out, in the no-hitter. There have been many of those over the years. But sometimes you put up with that stuff because he could hit the bomb for you, he could drive in -- he put up great numbers. And there was a lot of things they tolerated that they would not have tolerated with anybody with less ability or with a guy that you never knew from day to day, if you get on the guy, suspend him, do you lose him?

Orsillo: Right.

Remy: All of a sudden, does his knee hurt and does he go home? So, you know, it's like a large cloud that's been removed from this whole organization, I think, and I really think in the clubhouse today, it had to be a much better feeling going in there knowing you don't have to deal with this. Now I'm not gonna Manny-bash. I'm not going to do it, because I totally enjoyed my time in this job watching him doing his job when he did it the right way. But the time was now. It was enough.

Orsillo: No question.

Remy: The last two weeks was disgusting and I tell you, Don, it surprised me, because coming into spring training, he had, in my opinion, the best attitude I've ever seen him have for three months of this season and --

Orsillo: It switched in a hurry.

Remy: What switched, I have no clue. But it went bad, and it went bad quickly.

Orsillo: Perhaps he thought that maybe before the break, they would take care of him or it would be dealt with at some point early in the season, maybe that's when it didn't happen and all of a sudden --

Remy: Well, those are the things we don't know. Those are the things we don't know. But what we do know is what's happened here over the last couple of weeks, you couldn't go on that way. And you couldn't flip the coin and say maybe he's gonna do well after this. You just couldn't say that because you don't know.

Orsillo: The Red Sox did give up a lot, we've lost Brandon Moss, we've lost Craig Hansen. And Jerry, I thought heading into the trade deadline, the real need they had perhaps was going to be in the bullpen and they ended up kind of losing a guy from the bullpen that had been out there on a regular basis, good or bad.

Remy: Well, a guy that has been very inconsistent, yes, and I'm sure they tried -- Theo Epstein as a matter of fact said today that they were trying to do something out in the bullpen but the fact is the right deal was not out there. And this Manny thing was so consuming.

Orsillo: All-consuming.

Remy: I mean all-consuming, and many members of the organization, I'm sure, had to have input on this, do we take the chance, do we not take the chance. [Francona on screen] I'm telling you right now, this guy is the happiest guy in the world.

Orsillo: Most relieved man in the world.

Remy: He really is -- because at times he made life miserable for him, totally miserable, and right now he's in a much better place than he was two days ago. There's no question about that. Now, will the end result be better? We'll see. Time's gonna tell.

Orsillo: I guess that's the real big question. Are the Red Sox better today than they were yesterday?

Remy: They may not be today, but maybe they will be a week from now, or two weeks. We'll see. ... I mean I like the guy, I really do. He was entertaining as heck, he's a great ballplayer -- a great hitter, I should say -- and I will miss him. But I didn't have to manage him or be his teammate.

Orsillo: No. You might not have liked him as much. ...

Remy: One thing he did do is he provided us with reels and reels of entertainment in his tenure here with the Red Sox. There's no question about that. Positive and negative.

Orsillo: Seven and half seasons in a Red Sox uniform and none of them were boring.

Remy: Not a day was boring.

Orsillo: It will be interesting to watch on the other side, how he and Joe Torre get along in Los Angeles and how that all takes place. I mean, Manny has always been a guy who needs to be comfortable. We heard it all in the first, what, three years, here in Boston that he had to be comfortable after being in Cleveland. Well, how comfortable is he going to be in Los Angeles the last two months of the year? ... Not our problem ... [end of half inning]

[Then, with one out in the bottom of the third]

Heidi Watney: "I spoke with a lot of guys in the clubhouse today and they all agree it was time for the team to move on and for Manny Ramirez to go. Team captain Jason Varitek said you'll never be able to replace Manny, but now the team can move forward as a team.

Varitek (on video): Well, I mean, some of us have been a part of this for about eight years now and, uh, surprised? Yeah, because he's, he brings an offense that, you know, you can't replace with anybody or expect somebody to replace it, but you know the cards were kind of left in his hands a little bit, where he, he, he made it, you know, to a point where, uh, they had to -- to get rid of him.

Watney: Now Jason told me that Terry Francona stressed the importance of moving forward as a team in the meeting this afternoon and Terry Francona told me he was just excited to address the team and excited to put all of this behind them.

Orsillo: Okay, thank you very much, Heidi. .... Jerry, I want to ask you how distracting it is from a team standpoint I guess it would come from the reporters and writers asking everybody else, you have to answer for Manny, since Manny's not going to talk to the media, for the most part, during those situations and it seems that's how the players were affected because they're always having to answer for Manny in that situation.

Remy: Well, in this last situation, Manny was doing the talking and then they had to get responses from the players -- and the players get tired of it. You got your own job that you have to do and worry about up there, the manager obviously has to take care of the whole club, but individually you've got a job to do and you don't want to be answering questions that have no relevance to you at all. You can't get into the head of what somebody else is thinking, and why he's saying things ... I told you, Don, last week, that I spoke with him briefly in the clubhouse and he was dead set, he's said these things before, but I left with the feeling that he definitely wanted out of this place and he gave them no other option but to get him out of here. And it's done. It's over. And as you say, you move forward and you see what happens.

88 comments:

Dirty Watah said...

Just be glad you weren't listening to Dale Arnold.

L-girl said...

Just be glad you weren't listening to Dale Arnold.

That's hardly the point.

The Red Sox own NESN and were using Remy and Orsillo as mouthpieces for their POV. Viewers are a captive audience, and we were subjected to a completely one-sided story.

We didn't tune in to hear more Manny bashing. We wanted to watch baseball.

Remy & Orsillo easily could have said, we've all heard enough about this, there's nothing more to say, we wish Manny well, we welcome Jason Bay, let's play baseball.

Instead they used their positions to subject us to propaganda.

Remy says Manny has no respect for the game? Remy should have a little more respect for his job.

* * * *

[I think the broadcast team selling Benitez that night was Sterling and Steiner; I'm pretty sure Kay had moved over to YES by then.]

James said...

The Red Sox own NESN - what can you expect?

Not that I don't agree with a lot of what they had to say, but Remy is like Sergei Eisenstein; he's pretty damn good at what he does, but he's got an opinion he needs to push, and he's going to push it.

I was at the game, so I didn't get to hear this. I assume the fourth inning mostly consisted of him selling some trinkets from his website?

L-girl said...

Calling Manny lazy, "entertaining" (what ballplayer of Manny's caliber is labeled "entertaining"??), the "some people say" about having "zero respect for the game" - this was all completely gratuitous.

Coming from a man who disgusted us all with his self-promotion (t-shirts, website, it never ended) and his ongoing cutesy jokes about his little Wally doll, it was beyond hypocritical.

Remy spent whole seasons forgetting that he isn't the reason we're tuning it, he's not the show. But Manny Ramirez, who helped us win two World Series, is disrespecting the game??

Remy and Orsillo debased themselves with this clown show.

Someone should send them last night's game thread so they can see how well it was received.

L-girl said...

The Red Sox own NESN - what can you expect?

Professionalism.

Class.

Respect.

Respect for viewers, by recognizing that fans have heard enough already, and now just want baseball.

Respect for Manny. The man is already off the team! There is nothing else to be gained by continuing to bad-mouth him.

s1c said...

Just some quick hits before I go to bed (just got in from work) so it will be interesting to see how the comments flow by noon (my usual wake up time).

First - I am still looking for obscene in the Henry E-mail, From ESPN

I find remarks that we have been anything other than completely straightforward to be personally offensive," Henry said in an e-mail, according to the Herald. "Manny has been a crucial part of two world championships. I do not believe we would have won either without him. He has never played a more important role than he has thus far this year."

2nd - Actually Remy said that Manny did have respect for the game, he just didn't always show it. As for the lazy part, I know there were numerous times that Remy talked about how hard Manny worked at his hitting. I'm sorry, but I really don't see what he said as bashing.

Should he have expressed his opinion during the game? Probably not. Would I have expressed an opinion during the game if I was the color analyst? Probably not, but then again I might have.

3rd - You cannot really be upset about the use of the word entertaining? Manny on or off the field was always entertaining, whether it was a head rub of Tavarez, those stupid shakes he used to do with O-cab in '04, the cut off of the throw from Damon, the "I'm a bad man quote" last year. That was pure gold. It was funny, it was ENTERTAINING.

I hate to sound snippy, or snide but give me a break (leg is preferred over the arm).

4th - I doubt very seriously that NESN sent out the word to trash Manny to the booth.

Off to bed, try to keep the flame from being to big guys.

L-girl said...

No flame, I just disagree, which you already knew.

L-girl said...

Actually Remy said that Manny did have respect for the game, he just didn't always show it.

Don didn't need to even bring up the subject. He opened the subject to remind viewers that Manny disrespects the game.

I know there were numerous times that Remy talked about how hard Manny worked at his hitting.

Not last night he didn't. He only emphasized his laziness by not running out ground balls.

You cannot really be upset about the use of the word entertaining?

Not if it was surrounded by the full measure of the player. But yes, if the announcer is making it sound as if that was Manny's greatest value. It most certainly was not.

I doubt very seriously that NESN sent out the word to trash Manny to the booth.

Then you might be a bit naive about how media works.

ish said...

Not quite sure how I felt about the content of their discussion, but for the average fan and for the broadcast of the first game after this major trade, I think it was a discussion that needed to be done, during the game, to put some closure on the debacle, debrief it, and then move on.

If they start talking about Manny tonight, however, I'll be pissed.

ish said...

So now, it appears Manny, when he learned he was really going to be traded to Los Angeles, actually wanted to stay!

Edes:

Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.

For the Sox, the source said, Ramírez's pledge of good behavior only served as a tacit admission that his disruptive conduct of the last couple of weeks had been calculated, and they had had good cause to suspect more was in the offing if they did not trade him. The Sox told him thanks but no thanks, what was done was done, and pack plenty of sunscreen.




That leads to an assumption that before he was traded, he filled out paperwork approving a trade anywhere, which couldn't be undone. He must've already waived his 10-5 rights or else, if he wanted to stay, he could have vetoed the trade.

redsock said...

First - I am still looking for obscene in the Henry E-mail

Looks I remembered it wrong. "Personally offensive" and not "obscene". My mistake.

Still, an organization who prides itself on keeping things in-house clearly changed those rules in the last few weeks.

4th - I doubt very seriously that NESN sent out the word to trash Manny to the booth.

Perhaps not directly. Who knows? But Don and Jerry are not dumb; they know what the party line is. As do the newspaper people.

And this was so far above and beyond anything they have discussed about the situation since it began, I found it more than odd. We don't get NESN every night, but I do not recall them making much of a peep about the whole thing -- mentioning it in passing, yes, but not a long discussion of what has been going back and forth -- and now that Manny is out of town, the flood gates open.

And the POV is from one side only -- NOT a look back at everything that led to this point. That's where they blew it. It was presented as a wrap-up, but it presented Manny as 100% to blame and the front office as a super-kind group of people who did every darn thing in their power to make Manny happy and still he didn't care.

Here's a project:

Has there be any media person -- any article -- that has examined this matter from all sides and doled out at least some blame to the front office?

Jack Marshall said...

With the exception of his obviously disingenuous comment that Remy wouldn't engage in Manny-bashing even as he was doing it, I found Remy's comments appropriate and probably toned down from what he wanted to say.

Only in the emotionally-charged pro-Manny enclave that is Joy of Sox could someone write with a straight face that calling the man "entertaining" is an insult. What else, other than "entertaining,' can you call the high-fiving of the fan mid-play? The silly cut of of Damon's throw? The antics in the wall? The signs? "Entertaining" is the best possible spin you can put on the legitimate "MBM" moments. For years, a word commonly used, even by other baseball players, to describe Manny's on-field persona is "clown." Remy probably would use a different word. He was the antithesis of Manny as a player, without any of Manny's physical gifts, he had to work his damndest to play good defense, not strike out, hit behind the runner, do all the "little things that don't show up in the box score," run the bases, and abide by the team's rules. He never spoke out much; I doubt that he ever ran through a stop sign at third---and if he did, he was probably fined for it. I'm sure he never joked after messing up a play. Remy probably wanted to say that Manny's act was "nauseating," because I'm certain that to him, an old school player of no star value who had to play the game "right" or not at all, it was. His commentary wasn't NESN---it was Remy. And like most broadcasters, he has access to the players and sees a lot of stuff we don't,some of which he can't talk about directly. When he says that the players on the team were fed up with Manny, that's a credible statement. I believe it---I think most of baseball believes it. People on this thread don't believe it because they don't want to believe it. OK, be deluded--or be a loyal Manny fan beyond all logic---it's your right, and it's traditional, I guess; "Say it ain't so, Joe!"

I watched the LA game last night---on his infield hit and the last double play, Manny ran about twice as hard as I've seen him run for about two months. What does that tell you? Torre has told Manny to cut his hair---the Red Sox didn't dare raise an issue like that with Manny. So Remy says that the he was annoyed by Manny saying that the Sox "didn't deserve him," when they had obviously---obviously!---bent over backwards not to confront him and to keep him happy, even at the cost of giving him special privileges and tolerating insubordination. I'm sure REmy was annoyed at that. He should have been. JOS should have been. There has been more criticism aimed here at Jerry Remy over this sorry episode than on the man who caused it, and was apparently willing to sink his team's play-off chances out of pure spite and childishness.
I'm not going to debate the "Manny was run out of town" conspiracy buffs---it's futile, and the other side clearly is in the grip of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts" out of loyalty, love, or mass-hypnosis. But Remy had to comment on the Ramirez situation last night, and called it as he saw it, with restraint. It's fine to disagree with him, though I can't see how. But the venom last night and this morning are completely unfair.

redsock said...

Making Orsillo and Remy blab about the idiotic Sox Appeal, showing us couples chatting and having them speculate about what they are saying and thinking -- WHILE THE GAME IS GOING ON -- that is not respecting the game. Or the fans.

Why don't they do that shit during a half-inning as an actual commercial?

Trying to cram an extra commercial into the break to make more $$$$ and have fans miss pitches -- more respect of the game.

NESN really screwed up once when the first pitch was hit for a home run -- they joined the action as the batter was jogging to second base.

And Remy selling scorecards during the game -- way to show respect, you selfish shill.

truth said...

As soon as Remy said he wasn't going to do "Manny-bashing" I started yelling "And here comes the Manny bashing" at the TV, because I knew what would follow.

Everybody focused on Manny saying last week that the Red Sox don't deserve a player like him, but to me what he said in the middle of that statement was really true: Look how the team treated Nomar and Pedro, trying to turn the fans against them as they left. (For the record, I was against getting rid of Nomar, and that was the right move; and I was in favor of letting Pedro go, and that was the right move, too.)

There is no reason to smear your superstars on their way out the door, no reason to tarnish our memories of their greatness.

I refuse to think less of Manny Ramirez the player just because the FO has the "media" (I use that term very loosely when referring to Remy) spouting the company line.

redsock said...

and the other side clearly is in the grip of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts"

That road is a two-way street, Mr. Marshall.

L-girl said...

Only in the emotionally-charged pro-Manny enclave that is Joy of Sox could someone write with a straight face that calling the man "entertaining" is an insult.

See my comments above. Out of context, sure, entertaining is not an insult. In the context of Remy's spiel, it was. He said it as if the only way to describe Manny's play - as if the best thing that could be said about it - is that it is entertaining.

Since many people on last night's game thread were similarly disgusted, I doubt it was "only in the emotionally-charged pro-Manny enclave that is Joy of Sox" that viewers felt this way.

However, if it was only on Joy Of Sox, that makes the reaction no less valid. Popularity is not a measure of validity.

the other side clearly is in the grip of "my mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts" out of loyalty, love, or mass-hypnosis.

Jack, this is unnecessary and highly insulting.

People who disagree with you are not under a spell. We are not disregarding facts. We have our own minds, we assess a situation, and we come to a different conclusion.

Are you not aware that two people can look at the identical situation and reach different conclusions?

Or do you delude yourself into thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is simply blind, unenlightened, or stupid?

How dare you. How fucking dare you.

L-girl said...

Allan, your comment re Sox Appeal, ads and other disrespect of the game is worth adding to your post.

L-girl said...

As soon as Remy said he wasn't going to do "Manny-bashing" I started yelling "And here comes the Manny bashing" at the TV, because I knew what would follow.

It's a guarantee. When you hear, "I'm not a racist, but...", I'll bet you next month's rent that a racist comment is coming.

stoutdog101 said...

Having watched the Manny saga from afar (i.e. no NESN, WEEI, or Boston.com), I can honestly say that I have no problem with Remy's comments.

Manny's back-and-forth, "trade me"-"don't trade me" attitude got on my nerves a long time ago. These past few weeks capped it all for me, from that intentionally goofy play that turned a single into a triple (followed by laughing about it!), to the cell phone in the monster. Manny's antics were cute when they were confined to unintentional dropped flies, but he took it to a whole new level lately.

Not running out ground balls and fly outs, screwing around in the outfield - all of this shows, to me, that Manny was taking advantage of his $20 mil and decided that he could do whatever he wanted. Add the cell phone incident to that, which shows a blatant disrespect for the game, and I can't really see any way to defend what Manny has done recently.

Saying that the "Red Sox don't deserve me" was the last straw...

L-girl said...

And the POV is from one side only -- NOT a look back at everything that led to this point. That's where they blew it. It was presented as a wrap-up, but it presented Manny as 100% to blame and the front office as a super-kind group of people who did every darn thing in their power to make Manny happy and still he didn't care.

That's what makes it propaganda, and that's where the anger comes from. (That and the fact that he's already gone.)

That's also why it smells of "marching orders" from above.

redsock said...

Remy: You're exactly right. And over the last few days, Francona had been calling in veteran players to get their feel, I think, on how they would feel if he would leave or if they would want him to stay, that's just my -- I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but you can only guess when you see veterans going into, prior to a trade deadline, into his office. So I think they were getting input from everybody ...

Yes, the other Sox were likely sick of the sideshow -- the entire sideshow -- but Remy here says something, notes that he's only making a guess, then restates it as if it was a fact.

Orsillo: There are those who say that Manny has zero respect for the game. Your thoughts on that -- and did he have respect for the game that we did perhaps not see?

There is no call for that at all.

Anyone else remember during the Nomar shit when he came out of the shower and saw the media around and made some off-hand comments about how bad it was here? The media all said he was referring to Boston and the team and clearly wanted out of town. What Nomar was actually talking about was the media themselves, how THEY make playing in Boston an often horrible experience.

9casey said...

L , thanks for the firefox tip..

9casey said...

How about Manny asking to come back to Boston after he was already traded?

Saying he would behave, in turn admitting he was being disruptive...saw that on Boston.com

YardSox said...

I love Manny - greatest hitter I ever saw, an impact player if there ever was one, and someone who brought a lot of joy to watching the Red Sox, in terms of pure baseball ability, an understanding that he worked hard to be the great hitter he was, and the enthusiasm he brought to the whole game of baseball. A game - something to entertain. And he entertained on many levels. I do not thing that to be an insult.

That all said, I can't find fault with what Remy said. There was no way Remy and Orsillo could not discuss this. Nor was this the forum to provide an in depth analysis that examined every incident in detail. This was the opinion of the color commentator, facilitated by a play-by-play line of questioning that might not have been comprehensive, but which hit some of the hot buttons. To say Remy acted on marching orders from Sox management is unfair. It seems ok to trash Remy on his speculation that Francona spoke with his players for their input, yet it's ok to assume that Remy acted on Sox management's orders. Please. I'll cut him the benfit of the doubt here. I think Remy has been more than fair through the years with Manny and has many times expressed his admiration as a fan. Both Remy and Orsillo have repeatedly pointed out how hard Manny works at hitting - all the time in the cage, first in the clubhouse, etc. They never adopted the lazy media approach that Manny was some sort of hitting idiot-savant.

One thing in particular I thought nailed it. I truly believe his teammates were tired of the situation and did not want to be badgered by the media. This no doubt would have continued. Should they be above such distraction? Hardly fair. Should the media be allowed to do this? Well, freedom of the press and all, but I would not bemoan one minute the end of media reporting. The game is enough - I could care less about all the background stories and color and inuendo and garbage. I have, for the most part, stopped reading the Boston media for example. I do read this blog - and another excellent Sox site (Lyford's lyflines). But, very few of traditional baseball media have any real clue, so they are worthless.

I said in the first thread on the trade that the fucking media drove him out of town. Well, that's partly true. As much as I love Manny, he is not without culpability here. Nor is the front office. But, to me, the biggest culprit is the media. If they were not in all of his teammates faces beating this to death, spreading distortion and outright lies (CHB..!!), maybe this trade doesn't happen.

I love the team first, however, and despite how unhappy I am that Manny is gone, I do hope Bay does well. I was glad to see his success yesterday (but I could not help think that his triple would have been in the garage across the street if Manny had swung the bat at that pitch....).

Last, I did watch the Dodger game last night. And, yes, Manny did run a hell of a lot harder down the line on the groundballs. Disappointing. But this was not something I got worked up over on the Sox. And it is not soemthing only Manny was prone to - too many players don't hustle down the line, but, one wonders how fabulous an idea it is on a routine groundball. The risk of injury may very well outweigh the return on the few hits a year they might produce. Certainly, not a cardinal sin in the church of respecting baseball - at least in my mind. And not the reason to get rid of one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game - though I guess it was primal cause from the media and sheep point of view.

ShoreysStories said...

I love reading your insights and we do often disagree on some of the Manny issues.

One thing I would like to comment on is Theo's comments to Buck. What's with that? Did it reach a place that Theo couldn't talk to Manny himself about if he wanted to be traded? If it did I agree that can't be all Manny. I mean how hard can be to find Manny to talk to. I'm sure Theo would comment on an the agent, but still. You can't blame Manny for causing team issues and then go to Buck to make a national announcement.

Is this the new way that teams will be attempting to make deals? The next day the Braves made a similar announcement about their first baseman. Do we like this? I don't think so. But it it worked for both teams so it is likely ot happen again.

My other thought is during the pregame show there were some fan interviews and I was moved with great pain for the youngster that said Manny was his favorite player and they bought tickets in advance to see him. If Jim Rice had been traded like this when I was kid I would have been crushed.

nixon33 said...

i love the old "old im not going to (insert whatever negative action here)..." and then going on to do that said action without blinking an eye. it's like a false justification.

anyway, remy strikes me as one of those dummy hard heads that ALWAYS has an opinion for any subject that is over his head. im sure he was very close to the situation being around the clubhouse, talking to the players, being a former player, etc. but this thing is WAY over his head, self admittedly.
to go even further, he's a cut throat moron being a filter from the FO to the millions of viewers MAKING SURE they know that it "was all mannys fault".


my favorite thing was when they came back from commercial break (in maybe the fourth?) i thoughts they had moved on and he goes right back into it with a "... but anyway getting back to the manny situation, it was really time to move on. I mean enough is enough." or something to that effect. he could wait to keep talking about how it was time to move on. i remember a couple of us posted YES ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. i had already been sick of remys shit, but watching last night was kind of embarrassing.
and some of the fans who just woke up yesterday because they discovered it was TRENDY to be a sox fan since they won 2 WS and mommy and daddy who get comp'd tickets to the sox games because they work for whatever advertiser that is in bed with the sox holding up signs "manny who?". go fuck yourselves.

we understand he could be a pain in the ass, but why not talk fairly about the guy. why not discuss some of the good things he did? along with pedro and nomah, the guy helped change the face of the franchise forever.

i'll ALWAYS root for the red sox, always have, always will, its in the DNA. but watching the game last night, even if bay went 4-4 with 4 homers, it just wasnt the same. i'll get over it in a couple of days i guess, i'll have to. but watching dodgers fans chant "Man-ny, Man-ny" drove the knife right back in.

redsock said...

So now, it appears Manny, when he learned he was really going to be traded to Los Angeles, actually wanted to stay!

That is truly bizarre. In many ways, I don't think he really wanted to leave Boston. His kind words about the fans showed he liked the environment. But there were apparently things he wanted (or his agent and he agreed they wanted) (or there was some possible slight by the front office) and forcing a trade was one possbile way to get what he wanted.

Did Manny think he could call the Sox's bluff and they would not deal him? (I wonder how low of a return Theo would have been willing to take?) He should have seen that he'd lose on that count.

I believe Manny was sincere when he said he wanted to retire here with 600+ HR, etc. When it became clear to him that the FO had no desire to do so, then things on both sides got out of control.

nixon33 said...

again i ask, as i did yesterday in the gamethread but so much was happening i think it was overlooked:

if manny doesn't hire boras in the off season, does this situation get this ugly and end up in manny being traded in this fashion?
i know this is HIGHLY speculative, but im just taking the temp of what you all think?

redsock said...

Should we have a contest to see which player is next to be in CHB's and Buckley's cross-hairs?

Drew is a good candidate ... Bot often can't shut his hole ... Ortiz is black, he's got old player skills and he liked Manny ... Maybe someone we don't have yet (can they wait that long?) ... hmmmmmmmmm

James said...

I'm not a racist, but I will gladly take next month's rent from you.

I don't know, it seems like getting worked up over people who work for the Red Sox echoing the party line is a little silly. I mean, by all means, go after the talk show hosts and newspaper people, but do you really expect Don and Orsillo to say anything negative about their employers on TV?

When the mouthpiece of the Red Sox organization (The President of Red Sox nation!) falls in line with people he represents; that's really something worth getting worked up over?

Now THIS is propaganda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiRiIpZVF4

redsock said...

that's really something worth getting worked up over?

I guess it is since I got worked up over it. If I get angry or happy or find something intereting, I'll mention it. That's a large part of what blogging is.

redsock said...

if manny doesn't hire boras in the off season, does this situation get this ugly and end up in manny being traded in this fashion?

i was going to say no way does it get this bad, but if the red sox were going to let manny go after this season and he was upset by that because he thought for sure they would keep him (which they might have indicated to him; what was his comment about the team saying one thing and doing another, we never found out what they was about), yeah it could have gotten this bad -- or bad in a differtent way.

redsock said...

it seems like getting worked up over people who work for the Red Sox echoing the party line is a little silly.

I mean no offense by saying this, but you don't have to read everything I post. I don't mind (in fact, I'll never know).

redsock said...

And now I'll try to get a lot of work done so I can see the game tonight.

nixon33 said...

re: the boras thing.

i wonder though if he keeps that same spring training attitude, the secret, dont worry be happy, and starting the season off in better shape than ever, if he would have put up crazy numbers this year and make the sox think about picking up his option without any head trips with his agent and agendas. how does he gain from this? boras gains as he NOW gets a profit from manny being traded from the sox since the options are gone (I'm not going to pretend like i know the details, but this is true). something about a clause that manny previous agent put in there that if he was fired another agent could profit from the options being picked up, or something to that effect. now boras is set to gain on the next deal sine the options are gone. but manny wont get the money he wants. $40 mill for two years form the sox, he aint gonna beat that.

papa sime said...

not sure if anyone else has posted any response to "Has there be any media person -- any article -- that has examined this matter from all sides and doled out at least some blame to the front office?"

I turned on espn radio 890 in boston last night for a few moments and was instantly struck at how different the dialogue was. WEEI heads have been going crazy the past few, the hosts have been lashing out w/ anger in their voices about Manny, basically non-stop, and bashing any caller who tried to send ANY love Manny's way, telling them in effect that NO THAT IS NOT HOW ANAYONE FEELS ABOUT THIS SO YOU MAY NOT EITHER.

So I put on 890espn for a few moments... and right away they were saying "NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS TRADE" and many more comments along those lines. They were definitely offering a very refreshing and in my opinion realistic take on the situation: it was necessary but this sucks. And although I didn't listen for long so I don't know if they were passing any blame to the FO, I wouldn't be surprised....But either way I tipped the hat to them for not taking Manny's actions as personally offensive unlike WEEI madmen.

L-girl said...

Nix, I was waiting for your comments. Great stuff.

nixon33 said...

papa sime. yeah pete sheppard on 'eei was CELEBRATORY when the trade came down, i just couldnt believe the antics on that station. they were laughing about it!

nixon33 said...

This was in my inbox, that was fast

L-girl said...

I don't know, it seems like getting worked up over people who work for the Red Sox echoing the party line is a little silly.

If you want to see people get really worked up, tell them the things they're worked up about are silly.

Try it on Jere, he especially loves it.

Tony, different things bother different people. You don't have to agree, but just because something doesn't bother you, doesn't make it silly.

I mean, by all means, go after the talk show hosts and newspaper people, but do you really expect Don and Orsillo to say anything negative about their employers on TV?

No. I do not. Hence what I have repeated several times: all they had to was say, the Manny Rameriz era is over, we wish him well on his new team, the Jason Bay era has begun, and now back to baseball.

nixon33 said...

Nix, I was waiting for your comments. Great stuff.

thanks, i'm honored!

L-girl said...

I watched the Dodgers game, too, until I fell asleep.

It hurt to see Manny in that uni. It made me really sad.

And hearing the game called by a true professional reminded me of how great the experience of listening to a ballgame can be.

It's unfair to use Vin as the standard, but damn, he is so great.

nixon33 said...

And hearing the game called by a true professional reminded me of how great the experience of listening to a ballgame can be.

I KNOW! it had been a while since id head a vin broadcast, and it was fantastic.

redsock said...

So I found an email address for The Remy Report (not Jerry's though) and send off an email:

I write the Joy of Sox blog and I was highly offended by Jerry's nasty comments about Manny Ramirez last night. He presented a completely one-sided version of the last few weeks, though since NESN/the Red Sox are his employers, I'm not surprised. What I am surprised at is that after hardly making a peep about the matter for weeks, once Ramirez is gone, the floodgates open.

Respect for the game? From a man who is busy selling his autographed scorecards during innings? Please.

I wanted to call his attention to a post I put up early this morning.
http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2008/08/remy-catapults-propaganda.html

Also, if he is so inclined, check out the comments around the time of the third inning (7:38 PM).
http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2008/08/g110-athletics-at-red-sox-7-pm.html

Just about everyone watching the game and commenting at the blog was disgusted. Despite the coverage in the papers, many Red Sox fans share this view and I think Jerry should know how we feel.

Thank you.

*********

nixon33 said...

NICE ONE REDSOCK! spot fucking on.

andy said...

I will love it if CHB goes after Drew. He is a good target since he doesn't give two shits about what the media says or anyone else for that matter. He's being so level it's sickening to the media types. Oh and he's good. When the lineup is Papi Bay Drew I will make dirty underwear.

redsock said...

Bay did well last night, I'd like to see him 4th tonight.

One new poster two days ago said he knew a bit about Bay from watching the Pirates and the way he described his in-game attitude made him sound a lot like Drew. I think the Bay honeymoon will last awhile though.

...

Not sure how long Lowell will be out.

andy said...

Maybe I missed it. Any analysis of the Theo Tito press conference? I do not know one thing that they said.

nixon33 said...

sucks about lowell.

andy said...

If you come into Fenway with a Sox uniform on and triple in extras and then score the winning run, while already scoring the only other run, you get to be respected and loved.

redsock said...

Universal Hub links here and says:

"Remy? You're on notice."

Heh.

nixon33 said...

andy, i think boston.com has the streaming videos.

nixon33 said...

how lowrie hasn't gotten any credit for last night as well?

andy said...

Lowrie just needs to play it quiet and keep producing. They will put lugo back out there just as soon as they can because he is so much better now. If there is a stir over who should be out there they will dump lowrie and we may not see him until next year.

nixon33 said...

Lowrie just needs to play it quiet and keep producing. They will put lugo back out there just as soon as they can because he is so much better now. If there is a stir over who should be out there they will dump lowrie and we may not see him until next year.

what? lugo so much better?

andy said...

Well you tell the RedSox that lugo is a piece of shit. They should have sent Lugo back to LA with Manny.

sparky said...

Several random thoughts here.. After a while, I thought maybe I was being naive and getting upset about the trade unnecessarily. I really wanted to watch the game and see how this Bay kid did, and the fans reaction, but I found myself actually getting angry with Remy and Orsillo. This is after I'd decided to try and be objective about it. I had to switch over to the radio broadcast. I've always thought that it's equally incumbent on the FO to sit down with players to air out concerns. I do read some of the papers and a select few blogs that I have some respect for (including Mnookin and Bradford to name a couple) and I've not found one that has even hinted that the FO might, in some small way, maybe be just a tiny bit culpable. Regarding Boras, I believe an agent should be a representative. I kept thinking that if he'd only told Manny "Look, the fans, viewing (reading) public can not know all of the facts, so get out in front of this traveling secretary issue - donate a large sum of money of your own accord. Something. Also, sit down with your damn employer because obviously this isn't working."

Jeff

andy said...

This blog has been ceaselessly defending Manny while calling to the forefront the media and the FO as where the blame should go. The people here have acknowledged Manny's part in it but have attacked the FO for playing childish games with the media.

Spencer Brown said...

Sorry, i'm outta here, this blog is just getting stupidly bigoted and polarized. Are there any blogs where reasonable objectivity prevails?

It seems that you just have a problem with authority and power that rises to the level of tinfoil conspiracy wackiness. Anyone who is connected with ownership or anyone who thinks they should be fighting for their country is automatically not just misinformed, not just that you disagree with them, but actually evil sellouts whose motives are hidden but ONLY YOU know what they are ACTUALLY ABOUT.

"These running dogs of imperialism are lackeys simply reading from the script of their dark masters" is not too much of an exaggeration of your position.

GMAFB. Outta here looking for a decent red sox blog that isn't tinged with insanity.

andy said...

You know what? The Red Sox organization has people on staff who are public relations experts. This is their sole job. Manny is a member of the organization. He should be afforded the same consideration that all the employees get. The organization has the responsibility of defending and portraying their employees in a positive light. This is why they have these public relations experts. When they turn them on their own, that is crossing a line that the union should look into.

redsock said...

I'd prefer it if we did not respond to SB's post.

Outta here looking for a decent red sox blog that isn't tinged with insanity.

Best of luck.

andy said...

Wait what just happened?

sparky said...

Andy, all I'm saying is that when one of my kids is acting like a jackass, I take him in the other room and tell him to straighten up. Then usually, he does. For a while anyway. I don't think anyone is of the thought that Manny is blameless here, but really... the parent, CEO, GM, boss, whatever, has some responsibility too! It's just that without variation, ALL we have heard is that it's all on Manny. It doesn't make sense. Almost every relationship that goes bad has more than one party at fault.

Jeff

andy said...

I took mine down because this thread may get seen by people looking for Remy stuff not this kind of bullshit. That bullshit belongs in game threads.

sparky said...

Andy - read your next post. I get it. Sorry!

Jeff

andy said...

Sparky I know what you are saying. You just said that no blog has blamed the FO. I am sure you meant every other blog but this one. You are good.

redsock said...

Okay, thanks, Andy.

There are a zillion Red Sox blogs out there. I'm sure he'll find one that is more in tune with his views.

When most people decide to stop reading a blog, they simply stop visiting. They don't feel the need to make a show of it.

We'll survive.

L-girl said...

When most people decide to stop reading a blog, they simply stop visiting. They don't feel the need to make a show of it.

Or insult the blogger on their way out!

People looking for disinterested objectivity shouldn't read blogs in the first place.

sparky said...

Andy - yep, that's what I meant. In my opinion, it's ludicrous to think that the FO doesn't bear some of the blame. I've not heard that expressed anywhere else but here. I never saw it as being a Manny apologist or an unconditional devotee or anything like that. I just thought it was being realistic.

Jeff

sparky said...

"People looking for disinterested objectivity shouldn't read blogs in the first place."

Lots of luck with the mainstream media too.

Jeff

redsock said...

Yeah.

Here's a news flash for ya:

People Have Opinions!


(recoils in shock)

L-girl said...

Lots of luck with the mainstream media too.

I know! I was going to write that, but I was trying for brevity.

nixon33 said...

hey SB, in the words of another crazy bastard, "SSSSSSSEEEE YA!"

Lord Lynch said...

Emotion, eh?

From this side of the pond, I am a lot more detached than others, but as someone who pays a good deal to see as much as I can of the Sox, I share some of the passion. This site made me feel really welcome, and their are good people on here. I don't pretend to know as much as the people who have lived and breathed the Sox and baseball for longer than I. Maybe I can see this from a somewhat detached perspective... maybe I'm a naive fool.

Sport is all about business now, and the company line is the bottom line. Someone goes out of that line is put back into it. Being a maverick is permitted only as long as that person is producing. As soon as a maverick doesn't it is see you later. Mavericks burn less long than the solid guys.

So did I expect a hatchet job from Remy - oh yes. Was it fair comment? In parts maybe. Did he really need to say it? I wish he hadn't - or maybe, I wish he'd had the balls to say it before Manny had gone. But when Manny was producing, it was more a chuckle. It's easy top be snippy when the other party is gone.

Manny has been in the Sox team as long as I have followed them. I'm as sad to see him go as when my baseball hero, and the man who got me into the game, Pedro, left. I don't doubt he was well out of order for some of the things at the end of his tenure in Boston. But instead of carrying on with the hatchet job after he's gone, I think Remy was wrong. Just as CHB will be, and all the others.

I don't mind the NESN coverage in the main, but maybe I'm grateful for anything over here. I just don't think it serves any purpose slagging off a bloke who has left - and it was more than suspicious that it was the company line.

Anyway, this is the friendliest site I've come across, and I enjoy my time here... and I won't flounce out over this!

redsock said...

Good stuff, LL, especially:

So did I expect a hatchet job from Remy - oh yes. Was it fair comment? In parts maybe. Did he really need to say it? I wish he hadn't - or maybe, I wish he'd had the balls to say it before Manny had gone. ... It's easy top be snippy when the other party is gone.

Jeff said...

I could care less what the media, including Remy and Orsillo, have to say about Manny. As a FAN, Manny was offensive. Dogging it to first, laying down on your team (and by extension, your fans), rolling over dropped fly balls, essentially telling the fans that they 'don't deserve him' etc etc etc. The laundry list was growing exponentially every day. Remy, who's ALWAYS said Manny was one of the hardest workers he's ever seen, knows far more about him than any of us ever will, but from a fan's perspective, great hitter, lousy person. He never made it easy for us to like him. I say good riddance, and no one is telling me to say that, just my own eyes. Now we can focus on winning.

Jeff said...

I could care less what the media, including Remy and Orsillo, have to say about Manny. As a FAN, Manny was offensive. Dogging it to first, laying down on your team (and by extension, your fans), rolling over dropped fly balls, essentially telling the fans that they 'don't deserve him' etc etc etc. The laundry list was growing exponentially every day. Remy, who's ALWAYS said Manny was one of the hardest workers he's ever seen, knows far more about him than any of us ever will, but from a fan's perspective, great hitter, lousy person. He never made it easy for us to like him. I say good riddance, and no one is telling me to say that, just my own eyes. Now we can focus on winning.

redsock said...

Remdawg, is that you?

I could care less what the media, including Remy and Orsillo, have to say about Manny.

The correct phrase is "I couldn't care less", meaning it is not possible for me to care any less about this thing than I do right now.

Lord Lynch said...

We have a re-run of the game on our channel (NASN), and they cut out Remy's rant.

Wise editing!

redsock said...

It was the entire third inning! Did they go from the 2nd to the 4th?

Fortunately, you can read the transcript!

s1c said...

Ok, so have been up and had some of that mojo juice known as coffee to help clear the cob webs. Interesting thread going here so lets look at a few things:

1 - part of my problem with the globe is that they do not have in 1" letters on every story, op-ed etc on the Sox or NESN that they own 17% (I've seen some places 19) of the team thanks to being owned by the most biased newpaper in the world the NY Times.

2 - Just be glad you weren't listening to Dale Arnold. Until the pushing incident Arnold was a huge backer of Manny. That turned him. As to whether the FO was the reason for that getting out I have to believe McAdam when he says the source was not them on that incident.

3 - Sock - my post about obscene was not really a jab at you but just pointing out that I haven't seen that and I knew you would want to correct that wording or admit your misconception. Just trying to be helpful there guy.

4 - Don didn't need to even bring up the subject. He opened the subject to remind viewers that Manny disrespects the game. Actually I think he brought that up so that Remy could say that MBM did respect the game, he just didn't always do it on the field.

5 - Then you might be a bit naive about how media works Maybe, though I have had more than one occasion to work with the media and have seen it destroy up close and personal. I just don't think that the Sox have put out the word to destroy, destroy, destroy and destroy some more the magical mystical tour of MBM. Not a point worth arguing about, just a disagreement on Remy's motives and NESN's as a whole.

6 - Mr. Marshall, could be you are projecting there, you might want to think about that. Lord knows I've disagreed with the JOS community on more than one occasion, right now though I see you as the unsmiling curmedgeon who is just saying stuff to piss people off. My inner heart says that is beneath you, please prove me right sometime.

7 - L-girl, you nailed it about Jere, but we still like the guy.

8 - Spencer Brown though if you are a man of your word you won't see this, door - ass - don't.

9 - Lord Lynch - good to hear from you bud. Never feel bad about being a late comer to Sox nation. All true fans are welcome!!!

Lord Lynch said...

Was online last night redsock... so heard it then before MLB TV gave up on me. Made some jibe about Pravda and communists! Like most of my jibes, they missed the mark!

Because NASN has a 2 and a half hour slot for a 12 innings game, they jumped from the 2nd to the 6th.

What deal has Mussina done with the devil?

The Philosopher Queen said...

I'm not sure what the problem is here. First of all, Jerry Remy made clear that he is stating his own opinion (by saying, "in my opinion...). Secondly, while Manny contributed largely to the team's recent successes, one would be hard pressed to say that they "respect" him. His playing and attitude is inconsistent, his attitude was bringing other players down, and frankly, the incident with Jack McCormick under most other circumstances would be considered assault and battery, and Manny would have been arrested. Not much to respect there.
There is a difference between a champion and a superstar. Champions play hard no matter what, regardless of their actual ability. They put the team first, and they are ethically sound people, in general. Superstars, on the other hand, may be great great players, but they lack the ability to think beyond themselves, and therefore don't think about the team, or their actions towards others. Manny is a superstar, not a champion. It's too bad, because people such as Manny do have the potential to be both.

You don't have to agree with Don and Remy, but what's the big deal? They are humans with opinions too, and they chose to share them. This is not the news, trying to be "fair and balanced". They care about the Red Sox. And truthfully, The Red Sox are better of without Manny.

nixon33 said...

The correct phrase is "I couldn't care less", meaning it is not possible for me to care any less about this thing than I do right now.

hahahaha.

redsock said...

You don't have to agree with Don and Remy, but what's the big deal? They are humans with opinions too, and they chose to share them.

I'm human. Am I not allowed to share my opinion as well?

I love when people do this.

"Hey, why don't you shut up! Remy is allowed to give his opinion, man."

But the person who says this invaribly misses the glaringly obvious point staring him in the face: I'm giving my opinion, too!

But for some reason, that should not be allowed.

And Jesus Christ, Queenie, you know you're regurgitating Jim Donaldson's spiel about champions? Donaldson! He makes CHB look like Roger Angell. I'd be ashamed.

redsock said...

TPQ: I re-read your second paragraph. What a steaming load of shite.

The Philosopher Queen said...

Redsock-

1. Actually, at no point did I said that you or anyone else couldn't or shouldn't post their comments or opinions. I was simply responding to the assertion that (Don and Jerry) "used their positions to subject us to propaganda." My response was simply to point out that it was not propaganda, but opinion, and they are entitled to theirs as well.

2. I have no idea what Jesus Christ has to do with this.

3. Admittedly, I don't have a clue who Jim Donaldson is or what he said about champions, but I'll check it out. I'll let you know if I'm ashamed or not after I read up on it.

PS. Your assertion that my second paragraph is a "load of shite" is nice, but unfortunately you didn't back it up with any fact or opinion as to why that might be. Nice try.

Sat Aug 02, 07:04:00 PM

redsock said...

You offered your own personal definitions for two highly subjective terms. I found it silly.