August 4, 2008

Stupid, Petty, Ungrateful, Ignorant

Updated below

We may think that Red Sox fans are a different breed, cut from better cloth than the average baseball fan. More loyal, more knowledgeable. But then something happens that shows beyond all doubt that Red Sox fans can be as stupid, petty, ungrateful, and ignorant as any other team's fans.

In the first inning of Sunday's game, after Jason Bay threw Mark Ellis out at second base (trying to stretch a single into a double), NESN showed some of the Fenway crowd. Several people were holding up signs (distributed by WEEI) that read: "Manny Who?"


Amy, a frequent commenter here, was in Box 91 (in right field) for Saturday night's game. She commented that "when Bay hit his [three-run] HR, the crowd started chanting, 'Manny Who?' over and over."

Ian Browne (redsox.com beatwriter) mentioned the chant in his game story, saying it was only "a smattering of Fenway fans". Amy's take: "It sounded like far more than a smattering ... It only lasted for a few minutes, but it was pretty loud."

She added that a bunch of boorish, beer-guzzling young men were chanting nearby and "perhaps that's what made it so loud for me". Perhaps. Browne is pretty straight-forward in his reporting, so I'm tempted to say that what was loud in right field sounded more faint to someone up in the press box.

If WEEI felt compelled to print up signs, why not "Thank You Manny!" or "Goodbye Manny!" on one side and "Welcome Jason!" on the other side? ... I know -- if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

Shame on everyone who not only took one of the signs, but was enough of an idiot to actually hold it up during the game. As I have said before (after Keith Foulke was booed in 2005, if I recall), I would love to have the power to erase the memories of these "fans" of everything Red Sox-related after Game 3 of the 2004 ALCS, because they do not deserve to remember and forever savour what came afterwards.

***

I had a different Manny post ready to go this morning, but then I saw the WEEI signs during Sunday's game and I got totally pissed off and wrote the above. Here is the other post:

The Last Word On Manny Ramirez

Manuel Aristides Ramirez was an essential part of the first Boston Red Sox team to win a World Series championship in 86 years.

During that historic drought, millions of Red Sox fans were born, devoted themselves to the team, and died without seeing the Boston team celebrating on the field after the final game of the season.

Manny Ramirez was one of the men who brought us something many of us thought we might never see -- a World Series title. ... (How many of us said "All I want is one"?) ... And then he helped win another championship three years later!

He deserves our heartfelt thanks, and he deserves to be as happy as humanly possible for the rest of his life.

81 comments:

Jere said...

I think the people who are happy to see Manny go are those who are weak enough to be swayed by the radio/newspapers, and of course, racists.

Jere said...

But I was happy on Friday night to see pro-Manny signs in the background on both righty and lefty batters. And Papi wearing the 24 wristbands.

There were no anti-Manny chants today that I heard from the Monster seats, but I definitely saw some dumb signs. I opted to wear my Manny jersey....

FenFan said...

I sat in the left-field grandstand Saturday night and heard the "Manny Who?" chants (loud enough but not that loud). My guess would be that they are of the same mentality of fans who still feel compelled to yell "Yankees Suck!"

Even worse was the previous Sunday night when the Yanks were in town. As I joined my fellow fans in a pre-game moment of silence for the passing of Russ Gibson, some jerk yelled "Yankees Suck!" right in the middle of it. *sigh*

Boston said...

I had a allot of wonderful times with my ex-girlfriend. I was also VERY good and generous to her. Then one night I caught her with another guy. Should I thank her for all the wonderful times or feel betrayed that she ended it that way?

I feel betrayed that Manny could not finish the year like a man! I help pay his salary so that was the least he could do for his fans:)

Pat said...

Lighten up! It's all in good fun. It's "Manny being Manny": "Fans being Fans". Calling names is so uncalled for.

Amy said...

It really did make me feel sad. My stomach did one of those flips you get when you hear someone is ill or died.

(BTW, Allan, notice that this time I did read the main post, not just the comments. I feel sort of famous and honored for being quoted!)

L-girl said...

Calling names is so uncalled for.

Isn't that the point of the post?

Then one night I caught her with another guy.

More like you treated her like shit for so long that she finally got up and walked.

L-girl said...

. I opted to wear my Manny jersey....

Cool! I've missed you around the threads the last few days, thought you might be at the games. Glad to know you were!

L-girl said...

I would love to have the power to erase the memories of these "fans" of everything Red Sox-related after Game 3 of the 2004 ALCS, because they do not deserve to remember and forever savour what came afterwards.

Word.

Boston said...

More like you treated her like shit for so long that she finally got up and walked.

"Interesting take"
... I believe the Red Sox treated Manny very well over the years and have been very professional in doing so.
(I also treated my ex girlfriend very well too :)

Manny can be an amazing baseball player when he WANTS to be. Too bad someone with so much talent is so messed up. Give him time - he will turn on LA too! That's what people like that do:)

A little night musing said...

Well said, redsock.

I haven't been able to get my thoughts organized since the Trade. But one of the things that keeps striking me is the willingness of [some] fans to get caught up in ugliness like this.

I would like to think that I can hope that Jason Bay will work out well for the Red Sox without having to let go of my love of Manny. Yesterday, watching the Red Sox and then the Dodgers in succession, I felt that could happen. I had fun watching the Red Sox win (since I missed seeing the signs in the early innings) and I enjoyed watching Manny go 4-for-5 and seeming to have a blast doing so, finally.

You know what? I feel sorry for anyone who couldn't enjoy both of those things.

A little night musing said...

Jere, I saw your post about sitting next to John Hanry in the Monster seats. Great story! Good job snagging the video too.

I opted to wear my Manny jersey....

I'm wearing my Manny "Legend" shirt at every opportunity.

L-girl said...

I believe the Red Sox treated Manny very well over the years and have been very professional in doing so.

I don't call the circus that we just witnessed very professional. The Red Sox used the media to do their dirty work, but it's dirty work just the same.

Manny can be an amazing baseball player when he WANTS to be.

Manny is an amazig baseball player.

Too bad someone with so much talent is so messed up. Give him time - he will turn on LA too! That's what people like that do:)

You talk as if you have some special knowledge of Manny's personality or his future, while you parrot what the media has fed you.

doublenicks said...

There is no doubt the spin machine is in full effect by the media . . . I overheard people at breakfast yesterday talking about how Manny was running out ground balls in LA. Bah! Why is Manny jogging to 1st suddenly a problem in 2008? He's been doing it forever. He wasn't great because of his D (although he showed flashes). He wasn't great because of his baserunning. He was(is) great because he rakes. Period.

I was in favor of the Bay trade. It was time. But I won't stop missing or rooting for Manny (unless he's playing against the Sox).

redsock said...

Lighten up!

I have an idea. Fuck off.

johngoldfine said...

It's deeply ugly that the media should create/distribute the signs to hype the story and should find Manny's departure an occasion to appeal to people's smallest selves. To whip up a crowd. Dare one say a lynch mob?

"Manny Who?" is so fucking stupid and wrong on so many levels--and there people are, thinking of themselves as cool as they do dumber and dumber shit at the behest of WEEI.

Boston said...

You talk as if you have some special knowledge of Manny's personality or his future, while you parrot what the media has fed you.

...I'm only basing my opinion on what I have seen with my eyes including working at Fenway. Just an opinion though.

Let me throw this question out there. Did the Boston Red Sox do anything that was unprofessional or ethically wrong? What did they say that was not true or misleading? (facts only please:)

Maybe someone has that inside scoop that can change our feeling of betrayal :)

L-girl said...

Perhaps someone else will take up "Boston"'s questions. I personally have no interest in that debate.

John Goldfine says it perfectly above.

And as Allan says, so-called fans who can't just wish Manny well, while also appreciating Jason Bay's contributions, don't deserve the joy and pride he gave us in 2004 and 2007 (and the other years, too!).

Boston said...

Sorry to put you on the spot L-girl. I was just responding to your comment that said

"I don't call the circus that we just witnessed very professional. The Red Sox used the media to do their dirty work, but it's dirty work just the same."

I just didn't see it the same way. We agree to disagree:)

I love the Boston Red Sox - always have (although I have disagreed with many choices they have made).

Unfortunately I don't always feel the same way about some of the players. I'm sure there are some SF fans out there that can relate :)

Rob said...

Ignorant, drunk fans at a baseball game? I'm stunned, stunned! And WEEI caters to that demographic by and large, so it's no surprise really they would put out these cards.

That having been said, I do think it's entirely consistent to appreciate what Manny did here for this team but at the same time be relieved that he is gone. I will always respect the man and his extreme talent, but he was poisoning this team in the last few weeks. I think all partiesi involved are better off for the changes of scenery.

Boston said...

PS

I do feel the Boston Red Sox won the World Series with Manny's help.


... but there were many times they won games DESPITE Manny's behavior. The same can't be said about Pappi or many of the other CLASS acts on the team.

L-girl said...

You weren't putting me on the spot. I was aware of what you were responding to. I'm just uninterested in arguing about it, as my views on the subject are already well-documented on this blog.

Despite all the smileys, the implication that Boston fans should "relate" to how Giants fans may feel about Bonds shows a real short-sightedness about baseball, and a huge blindspot. That's another reason I see no reason to argue: your mind is obviously made up, as is mine.

redsock said...

The same can't be said about Pappi or many of the other CLASS acts on the team.

Pappi?

...

P.S.: Why is almost every single person who has come out out of the woodwork to criticize something I've written about Manny unwilling to have a visible profile?

s1c said...

A quote from the Anchoress (while I work on my Manny Who avatar)- "When we are incapable of finding “one good thing” to say about Bush or Pelosi or even someone in our personal lives, we’ve surrendered reason to repellent hate; the hate owns us. At that point, we are no better than the person we abhor; we may be worse."

Call me in the middle of this, I loved Manny when he was raking, I hated Manny when he was pushing people to the ground, slapping people on tv, having a ball end up under his ass or other similar things but the man could hit. He could hit it far and he could hit it hard. The Sox were a better team when he was locked in and just playing baseball. The Sox were not a better team since the all star break when he got personal in his attacks. Are the Sox better off today than they were on 7/31 ? Probably but will the be better on 9/30? Not a chance.

You can blame the media, you can blame the front office but Manny also played a hand in his departure. As Bradford said on WEEI, Manny took the bait. So I will concentrate on the good of Manny as I play my DEEP IN THE NIGHT call by Joe C. from last year and try to forget the teeth grinding that he did other times. Good luck Manny, gone but not forgotten.

girlanachronism said...

The best I can do right now w/r/t Bay is be neutral. I will not take my frustration about the Manny situation out on him, and it's not his fault or under his control.

But I also don't really understand the sudden plethora of Bay shirts around town or the standing ovation he got when he came in...in statements that were even published in the Boston papers, Manny made clear that he didn't mean to be alienating the fans - he had a business issue with the ownership and appreciated the fans of Boston.

I'm a little bit more on the fence as far as what the real story is - I'm not totally comfortable with fully blaming the media circus any more than I'm totally comfortable fully blaming Manny - we can't know what went on behind closed doors and so all of us are just left with our impressions, what we're inclined to believe.

But I do think Manny is owed some respect or at least remembrance for all the years he spent here, the championships he brought us, and the presence he brought to the ballpark. He was a staple and a fixture, and acting like you've forgotten him so fast is just patently obvious sour grapes.

L-girl said...

Well said, Girlanachronism.

* * * *

I cannot find one good thing to say about the person in the White House, and I reject the idea that that makes me as bad as him, or that it makes me full of hate. It merely makes me honest.

There are people in the world about whom nothing good can be said.

redsock said...

Red at Surviving #@*& agrees.

doublenicks said...

I don't think Bay is at risk of feeling the frustration of Manny's departure. The guy is getting the biggest ovation of anyone right now. I just hope he lives up to the expectations because you know there are those that will turn on him when he stops being the savior and starts just being good old 30/100 Jason Bay.

Jack Marshall said...

Sometimes the nastiness directed at anyone who dares to utter a divergent opinion about Ramirez here reminds me of a cult. On JOS facts, logic and figures rule, except when it challenges Manny worship, and then it's "destroy the infidel." Strange, and kind of scary.

WEEI was classless to distribute the signs. Fans have every right---and reason-- to be pissed at Manny. I would never chant anything at the park,and I would never boo him, because he does deserve respect, credit and gratitude for his role in two championships. But the team, including Francona, was convinced that he sat out a game against the Yankees (which the Sox lost 1-0) to make some kind of incoherent point about his contract, and threatened to do more of the same. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that WAS the case, and if that was the case, it was unforgivable---a player letting down the team,the fans and the players, violating his commitments, and intentionally hurting Sox chances THIS season for personal gain. I'm pissed at Ramirez for forcing the Sox to trade him now, which is how I see it. It's not too different from the way I feel about Jay Payton. I think it is absurd to say the team treated Ramirez badly---really ridiculous. I thnk it's bizarre to infer diabolical anti-Manny motives from the statements of people like John Henry, Theo, Gammons and Remy, who are Sox fans through and through. Manny himself was 100% responsible for this episode, and for weakening the Sox, if that's how you see it.

I'm not happy to see Manny go, in the sense that I wish he could have made it possible to keep him in the line-up. The eccentric stuff, we could put up with like we have been for 8 years. I'm glad he's gone, because I don't think the team could depend on him any more, or at least didn't believe it could, which is the same thing, and he was a threat to derail the season.

I was NOT swayed by the media---I think I was a little ahead of the media (gee, maybe they were swayed by ME! Probably not...).

And race-baiting on this is absolutely offensive and uncalled for, Jere.

JCal76 said...

"I have an idea. Fuck off."

Usually pretty intelligent posts, arguments and thoughts which some I agree with and some I don't but this was a little strange to see.

"P.S.: Why is almost every single person who has come out out of the woodwork to criticize something I've written about Manny unwilling to have a visible profile?"

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm fairly new to posting on blogs and I don't even know if my profile is visable or not. If someone disagrees with you and their profile is visable does that mean they get a special shout out or something?

As far as Bay getting a standing ovation, didn't JD Drew, Cocoa Crisp, Dice, Schill etc all get standing o's when they first started for Boston? I figured that was a nice "welcome", nothing to do with Manny. Anti-Manny chants and signs are uncalled for but some people grieve in different ways and resentment for leaving, whether it's Boston's fault or Manny's, is not uncommon. Now if Manny ever plays at Fenway Park again and even one Sox fan boo'ed him I would presonally escort them to a nice clogged Fenway toilet and unclog it with their face.

L-girl said...

Sometimes the nastiness directed at anyone who dares to utter a divergent opinion about Ramirez here reminds me of a cult.

What nastiness? Examples, please?

The nastiest comment on this topic by far came from you, Jack, when you accused everyone who disagrees with you as being mindless drones under some sort of spell.

And you still haven't stopped. Now we're a cult. We're scary! (Although apparently not scary enough.)

What's offensive is not Jere calling racism where he sees it - where he sees it, Jack, not you, it's his opinion, his observation - what's offensive is your friggin self-righteousness. Get over yourself!

A little night musing said...

He deserves our heartfelt thanks, and he deserves to be as happy as humanly possible for the rest of his life.

Amen.

L-girl said...

"I have an idea. Fuck off."

Usually pretty intelligent posts, arguments and thoughts which some I agree with and some I don't but this was a little strange to see.


You may have found it strange, but it was not, as Jack may have been implying, said because someone had a divergent opinion.

Many bloggers HATE when people tell them to lighten up, not be upset about something, not care about something, or tell them their topic is silly or useless. I assumed that Redsock was responding to that.

When someone tells me one of my posts is silly, that I shouldn't be upset about something that upsets me, I have a similar reaction.

Re nonvisible profiles, it is considered bad form to post anonymously. It's the equivalent of not standing behind your comments. An anonymous poster never has to return with the same identity. S/he can post and run, never having to back anything up or hear any criticism.

It's another thing manny bloggers find irritating. You may not, but many other people do.

L-girl said...

Jcal76, your profile says you've been on blogger since August 07. It's a visible profile.

redsock said...

a cult ... Strange ... kind of scary ... absurd ... really ridiculous ... bizarre

Plus we're all under "mass-hypnosis". With someone who likes my blog saying this, who needs trolls?

And race-baiting on this is absolutely offensive and uncalled for, Jere.

I strongly disagree.

...

Also: Manny: Perception vs Reality

redsock said...

Many bloggers HATE when people tell them to lighten up, not be upset about something, not care about something, or tell them their topic is silly or useless. I assumed that Redsock was responding to that.

Yes.

Not only bloggers, but many PEOPLE hate it when someone smug shithead tells them to not be so angry at something they are angry about.

sparky said...

I had somewhat of a different take on Manny supposedly taking a game (or two) off. I happened to be at the game in Yankee stadium where Manny took a 3 pitch pinch hit K with the game on the line. I turned to my friend and said "See, why do you have to mess with him when he asks for a day off?" I remember something similar earlier in the season when he had asked for the day off but was in the lineup. In his first at bat, he got tossed for arguing balls and strikes. I remember thinking the same thing. By the way, after the Yankee game he was involved with winning the next two games against the Twins (was at both of those games too). The numbers don't lie - he plays a lot in a season, just don't mess with him when he asks for a day off.

Oh, and people complaining about "Yankees Suck!" chants? I have a deeper understanding of this phenomena after leaving Yankee stadium upon a Red Sox loss. The "Boston Sucks!" chant in the tunnel was so loud, my ears were ringing. Once I reminded myself of the standings, I realized it's something much deeper than baseball.

L-girl said...

Not only bloggers, but many PEOPLE hate it when someone smug shithead tells them to not be so angry at something they are angry about.

Of course. It's not only bloggers. It's an incredibly provocative and insensitive thing to say. If you don't share someone's feelings, say so, and state your own feelings. Don't presume to tell other people what they should and shouldn't feel.

redsock said...

Sometimes the nastiness directed at anyone who dares to utter a divergent opinion about Ramirez here reminds me of a cult.

Actually, Jack, judging from every report, article, video clip, and online poll I have seen since last Thursday, people like me are stating the divergent opinion. We are in the minority.

And for that opinion, we are getting plenty of nastiness in return (e.g., your insults about our inability to think for ourselves and the ease with which we allegedly have been manipulated).

It's time to give it a fucking rest.

nixon33 said...

someone print up these signs,
MANNY FUCKING RAMIREZ.
2004 WORLD SERIES MVP, REMEMBER?
THATS WHO, YOU UNGRATEFUL CUNTS.

Dan said...

Damn .. everyone's getting in on this. And since everyon'es got an opinion (and entitled to such), I'm gonna add my 2 cents :-).

I loved watching Manny rake and even loved watching some of his antics. I love that the current FO has brought us a great team year after year. With that, I actually place the blame on both parties. Manny or pulling the BS that affected the team (his team) and the FO for their "smear" campaign (for lack of better terminology). The actions reek of Scott Boras, but not many people mention him.

But as I said, that's my opinion. I think Jason Bay was underrated due to the team he was on and I think we can expect great things out of him in the future.

Rob said...

I think a lot of the people initially applauding Bay so loudly were doing so to make him feel welcome here. I'm sure he was very nervous stepping in for a superstar like Manny. Since he has played so well in the 3 games so far, it seems like the cheers now are in appreciation of that excellent play.

And being in this town, I can say it definitely seemed like people turned against Manny (even his supporters like myself) after he shoved down the traveling secretary. I suspect that was the turning point for the media who usually supported him as well (outside of Shaughnessy and some WEEI folks who have never liked him). In that aftermath, I know my tolerance for his antics waned when he was clearly acting out because he didn't want the team to pick up his option for next year.

redsock said...

A quote from the Anchoress (while I work on my Manny Who avatar)- "When we are incapable of finding “one good thing” to say about Bush or Pelosi or even someone in our personal lives, we’ve surrendered reason to repellent hate; the hate owns us. At that point, we are no better than the person we abhor; we may be worse."

I can't agree with that, ish. So if I can't find anything good to say about a mega-evil person --pick one out of history's hat -- then I am as bad as he is or worse?

I'm assuming by "one good thing" she doesn't mean something as inconsequential and meaningless as "he liked his dog" or "he gave a kid a quarter once".

Hatred can be healthy.

P.S. And are Bush and Pelosi supposed to be presented as opposites in that quote? Because from my chair, they are partners in mass murder and they both disgust me.

A little night musing said...

Speaking strictly for myself, here:

I follow baseball for the pleasure it gives me. I get a little giddy when I'm watching a game and it's going well. I was over the moon when I got to see Manny's 501st HR. I don't really want to spend a lot of time dwelling on the negatives, assuming I even agree with anyone about what those are. I've never yelled "Yankees Suck", because that's not why I watch the game. (I admit to getting a little schadenfreude pleasure out of the Yankees' troubles recently, but that's mostly about Ugly Triumphalist Yankees Fans I have to deal with here in NYC and less about the Yankees themselves, with whom, as long as they become just another team and not a Mystique, I'm perfectly willing to live and let live. And, further parenthetically, I've always liked Joe Torre and I'm glad to see him looking so relaxed in LA.)

Anyone who's read my posts about Manny (or who knows me) knows that I love him for the pure joy I experience every time I see him, vicariously experiencing his enjoyment of the game and his skill in playing it, and anyone who wants to take that joy away from me will have to pry it from my dead, bleeding hands.

Same thing for my following the Red Sox.

[I have more to say on this, but I won't exploit this space to say it.]

redsock said...

I believe this is McAdam's first report on the McCormick incident.

McAdam did not witness the altercation, but he was the first to report it. So where did he get this info?

Oddly, he offers no attribution to the details he describes, not even a perfunctory "according to a person who witnessed the incident" description.

Obviously, *something* happened that night, but the details have remained sketchy. Did any information about who leaked this story to McAdam ever come out?

A little night musing said...

I agree with nixon, except I do wish you'd lay off the c-word, my friend.

L-girl said...

I agree with nixon, except I do wish you'd lay off the c-word, my friend.

But then he wouldn't be Nix!

Nix, if you go to Fenway with that sign, you MUST take a picture of it so Allan can post it here!!

L-girl said...

[Allan, I totally agree with you, as you know, but Ish didn't say that, s1c did.]

Must we find something good to say about Stalin, Pinochet, Pol Pot? And if we can't, we are as bad as them, or worse???

I understand the idea of not being consumed by hatred, but hate can be well deserved.

Boston said...

I have a feeling redsock is a very healthy person :)

redsock said...

[I have more to say on this, but I won't exploit this space to say it.]

If it's on topic (and you agree with me :>) ), I don't think it's exploiting space.

(Maybe on your own blog? Speaking of which, read ALNM's fantastic May 2008 post about Sexy Lips.

s1c said...

Actually I posted the Anchoress quote, not because it was about bush / pelosi, but to try to remember the good and don't let the hate rule you.

It is my opinion that we are seeing hatred of the Media, The Front Office, the Manny Backers and the Manny bashers.

Lets remember we are fans of the Sox first and I choose to remember the good things that each of media, the Front Office and Manny have brought for our pleasure.

It was not a political statement but don't let the hate get in the way.

redsock said...

but Ish didn't say that, s1c did

Errr, maybe I was talking to ish about s1c's post? ...

Yeah!

L-girl said...

Disapproval and disagreement is not hate.

I don't think hate is entering into this. Strong opinions are being expressed, because there are strong feeling attached to this issue. But hate is something else entirely.

L-girl said...

Wow, that post looks awesome. I am going to bookmark it to read later. It may be a while, but I always get to my to-read bookmarks eventually.

L-girl said...

(Jere, in case you're reading, I have decided to join the majority regarding the word "awesome". I hope it doesn't tarnish me too much in your eyes.)

redsock said...

A Red Sox fan without barrels of hatred for various players, managers, umpires, writers, broadcasters, and club executives through the years isn't much of a Red Sox fan at all.

redsock said...

It was not a political statement

I know, but I was indulging in the JoS rule that allows me to express a political opinion in any discussion at any time!

s1c said...

years isn't much of a Red Sox fan at all

Then I guess I am just not a true fan.

JCal76 said...

Redsock - Lineups? Please? Quickly, I need it. I don't care if they're not posted yet, just make something up.

Rob said...

You're just as bad as the knuckleheads who won't listen to anyone that gives Manny any credit for his great play here. He was not the angel you're making him out to be and there were legitimate reasons to want him off this team. If you want to put your stock in some conspiracy to drive him out of town by the owners fueling racist fans, that's certainly your prerogative but it is not very interesting to read frankly.

nixon33 said...

the c-word was very popular here last year, im just carrying on the tradition ;)

L-girl said...

it is not very interesting to read frankly

Somebody forcing you to read this blog?

redsock said...

... but it is not very interesting to read frankly.

Then don't read it.

redsock said...

Heh.
L-Sock strikes again!

Meg said...

I had fun watching the Red Sox win (since I missed seeing the signs in the early innings) and I enjoyed watching Manny go 4-for-5 and seeming to have a blast doing so, finally.

You know what? I feel sorry for anyone who couldn't enjoy both of those things.


Amen to that! :) I couldn't agree more, a little night musing.

Bruce B said...

I appreciate Manny the same way I appreciated Johnny Damon -- they both gave us Sox fans everything we could have asked for, before they left, and the circumstances around their departure don't change that at all (and are arguable, besides).

I hope Manny is happy in LA.

Honest question about Jere's original comment, that the people who are happy to see Manny go include "of course, racists." Is that really still an issue? Either from personal encounters or from media? (I've been away from Boston for a while, living near San Francisco.)

9casey said...

I understand you feelings for Manny, why are they not the same for, Schilling, Varitek, and Timlin?

L-girl said...

I understand you feelings for Manny, why are they not the same for, Schilling, Varitek, and Timlin?

Who is this addressed to and what are you referring to? More info, please?

L-girl said...

Honest question about Jere's original comment, that the people who are happy to see Manny go include "of course, racists." Is that really still an issue? Either from personal encounters or from media?

It's still an issue, because there's still racism in the world. That hasn't gone away.

Latino players are often characterized as lazy and selfish in a way that white players seldom are.

Many fans and media tolerate - even celebrate - certain behaviour from white players, while condemning the same behaviour in non-white players.

And on and on.

At the same time, many white people seem to need to deny the existence of racism, as if it is a historical phenomenon only. (I'm not implying you do this, I wouldn't know.)

I always wonder when they think racism vanished, what year it magically melted away.

Joe Grav said...

I think Schilling is a jackass, but I have nothing but undying gratitude for his role in bringing us a World Series and would never boo him, or chant "Curt Who?"

Bruce B said...

I remembered hearing there were some bozos booing Johnny Damon the first time he came back with the Yankees, because he'd gone to the Evil Empire.

Booing in good fun = great

Forgetting what he helped do for the team = dumb

That's why I wasn't talking about Timlin or Schill, who both left/are leaving "on good terms", to my knowledge, or about Varitek who so help me is still there, I hope. (He's the one jersey I have, frankly... though it's hard to see him showing his age.)

My question about "racism" was to the assembled group. I actually thought Jere might have been sarcastic at first, but after reading a few postings I realized it apparently wasn't. And I don't want to make a big thing about it, if it's not a big thing.

redsock said...

I understand you feelings for Manny, why are they not the same for, Schilling, Varitek, and Timlin?

I'm not sure there are logical reasons for why we like some players more than others.

In the link I posted to ALNM's post about Tavarez, she begins with this: "Why do we follow certain players avidly while others hold little interest?"

Who knows? The three guys you mention are okay, if a bit bland. And as you might expect, Schilling and Timlin have said things (non-baseball things!) in the past that have offended or annoyed me.

It's a good subject, though. I think I like characters who are clearly enjoying themselves rather than players that look overly serious.

I loved Yaz as a kid, but I also liked Boomer Scott and Eck. And Burleson -- maybe he was a bit of both. Never warmed to Boggs, and worshiped Pedro.

And my fave player of all time is Babe Ruth -- the ultimate player, the ultimate character, the ultimate goof and the ultimate "X Being X" in the entire history of the universe!

Babe Ruth story I'm trying to research a bit more:
He once threw down his glove and started playing in the outfield with a stray puppy that had come out onto the field -- during a game!

Texas Gal said...

Great insight, as always, redsock.

I tried to express my similar thoughts over at my place- but anyone who is glad to see Manny go is lying or kidding themselves. He is a phenomenon, and was a massive part of the team's successes. That's not to excuse any mistakes he made along the way, but Manny was and is a helluva lot more than the "Manny being Manny" kerfluffles WEEI and Shaugnessey tried to drum up.

That said, my personal (growing) affinity for Jason Bay has absolutely nothing to do with my feelings for Manny. If someone chooses to view me liking Bay as me hating on Manny, that's their baggage, not mine. I love Manny, I like Jason. They are not mutually exclusive sentiments.

9casey said...

L-girl said...
Latino players are often characterized as lazy and selfish in a way that white players seldom are.


In my daily life, I see more racism between blacks and Puerto Ricans, than any other races out there. That maybe way off subject , but these 2 races really seem to have a dislike for each other. That is only in my dealings . I am not trying to make a broad statement by no means......Redsock good answer, honest....
one of my problems here is that some of the people who hate Lugo for hitting his wife(allegedly) , still love Manny even though he allegedly push down an older man...Now if the bias is based on baseball ability, thats just not right.

nixon33 said...

awesome

Bruce B said...

Quick story about Johnny Damon: In Game 5 of the 2003 ALCS in Oakland (one time it was good to be a Sox fan here, since it was possible to get tickets!) -- Damon went down hard in a collision with Damian Jackson.

He lay still for a long time.

The crowd was scared silent. An ambulance came out, they very carefully got him onto a stretcher, immobilized his neck etc.

But as they slowly loaded the stretcher into the ambulance, his arm came up with a thumb's-up. (Yes, he was lying on his back, so his thumb was actually parallel to the ground... but we knew what he meant.)

The place went absolutely berserk.

LJCohen said...

This is my 'armchair' psychiatrist assessment (and I'm not a shrink, nor do I play one on TV, LOL)

I think Manny was stressed by the attention and pressure on him in David Ortiz' long absence and the fact that his contract was up at the end of this year. It's hard to deal with uncertainty--sometimes it leads you to make a decision, any decision, just so the ambiguity is taken away.

You also have a fairly emotional guy dealing with a pretty closed administrative structure. I think they both misread the other's cues. (You know, like management is from mars, players are from venus. . .)

But what's done is done. Baseball is a business. Players and teams need to do what they each think is in their best interests.

I will miss that crazy guy with the dreads and the million watt smile. I enjoyed watching him play, at the plate and on the field.

redsock said...

think Schilling is a jackass, but I have nothing but undying gratitude for his role in bringing us a World Series and would never boo him, or chant "Curt Who?"

I'll yell at him from inside my house, but in public, never. He (and Foulke) risked their careers that month.

redsock said...

But as they slowly loaded the stretcher into the ambulance, his arm came up with a thumb's-up. (Yes, he was lying on his back, so his thumb was actually parallel to the ground... but we knew what he meant.)

When he talked about it later, he said (something to the effect) at that time he thought he was in Kansas City -- and standing on his feet.

mugro said...

I know that I am going to express a minority opinion here, but when I read your headline "Stupid, Petty, Ungrateful, Ignorant" I thought of Manny Ramirez.

I know that I will be accused of "drinking the koolaid" of the Sox front office, but I was really offended at the nature of Manny's comments about how he was being treated.

There are a lot of people in this world who don't know how they will put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. Manny's attitude struck me as being completely ungrateful for all the money that he is being paid to play this game.

I know that some might call me "weak" for "being swayed by the radio/newspapers" and OF COURSE a "racist," but I am damned grateful for the money that I make and the things that I have in my life. I was not "swayed" by anything more than listening to Manny express his spoiled attitude in his own words with his own voice in the radio interviews that he gave in the final days of his tenure here.

Do I appreciate all that Manny has done for the Red Sox? Absolutely. Without Manny, the Red Sox would not have won two World Series and they would have been a lot less interesting to watch. Manny is absolutely a Hall of Famer in my view, and I will not forget the contribution that he made to my life as a result of what he did for the Red Sox.

I will always praise his ability on the field, but I will think less of him as a man. My father told me freqently that after everything is said and done, your character, integrity and reputation are all you really have in this world. Manny might be a great ball player, but his character is suspect in my view.

SoSock said...

Wow
A lot going on here, eh?
I wrote a Manny post on my blog. It turned out a lot longer than I had thought it would.
I won't repeat it here, but I thought it turned out well.
I will miss Manny, and as I said there, I will miss the man more than the numbers.

I think I like characters who are clearly enjoying themselves rather than players that look overly serious.
That's wild that you wrote that because that's exactly the word I used repeatedly in my post - a character.
I write about my love for the Characters in the game, and I believe Manny IS the greatest character in the game today. If you can have the greatest character be the greatest hitter at the same time, well that's just as good as it gets.

And, further parenthetically, I've always liked Joe Torre and I'm glad to see him looking so relaxed in LA.
ALNM - I agree 100%. I was always a little shy about saying it here, which I know is rediculous. But I always said to my wife - "Damn, why does he have to coach the YANKEES!?" I was thrilled to see him go elsewhere, although I hated he had to get such a big shaft for it to happen. I also mention in my post my soft spot the Dodgers. It will probably be even a litle bigger now.

I'm not delusional enough to think he was blameless, but damn, I miss him already.

BTW - Jere has a great photo gallery of MBM on his site, check it out.